Bonus for combinations

[johndockley92]

As a long time fan of figure skating, I miss seeing combinations such as the 3A + 3T. In order to encourage such combos to make a comeback, and to reward extra difficulty, I think adding a bonus for combinations would be ideal. Perhaps a 10% bonus to the whole combination? Just a thought, such bonus would be added onto any 2nd half multiplier too.

In said system, values would look like this:

Normal 3F + 3T = 9.4

New 3F + 3T = 10.34

New 3F + 3T in 2nd half = 11.37

Normal 3A + 3T = 12.6

New 3A + 3T = 13.86

New 3A + 3T in 2nd half = 15.25

In my opinion, this would encourage the 3F/3lz + 3T combo in ladies (as opposed to 2a + 3t or 3t + 3t) and the 3A + 3T combo in men.

What do you think?

[kosjenka]

I miss 3A + 3T and 3A + 3F (by Plushenko).
I found it more powerful than combos with quads to be honest...

[johndockley92]

3A + 3F?? Do you have video of this?

[kosjenka]

This is not the best but it is where I first saw him performing it - 2002 Olympic free skate . 1:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhIiisXRBys

[victoriaheidi]

I also wish sequences were valued at 100% and not 80%.

[antmanb]

As a long time fan of figure skating, I miss seeing combinations such as the 3A + 3T. In order to encourage such combos to make a comeback, and to reward extra difficulty, I think adding a bonus for combinations would be ideal. Perhaps a 10% bonus to the whole combination? Just a thought, such bonus would be added onto any 2nd half multiplier too.

In said system, values would look like this:

Normal 3F + 3T = 9.4

New 3F + 3T = 10.34

New 3F + 3T in 2nd half = 11.37

Normal 3A + 3T = 12.6

New 3A + 3T = 13.86

New 3A + 3T in 2nd half = 15.25

In my opinion, this would encourage the 3F/3lz + 3T combo in ladies (as opposed to 2a + 3t or 3t + 3t) and the 3A + 3T combo in men.

What do you think?

The only problem with just giving an overall bonus to the combination is that it still doesn't address the issue of, for example, a 3T+2T having the same difficulty as 2T+3T.

I think the first thing to do would be scrap the 0.8 penalty for sequences. Sequences should net the skater more points than the individual jumps to show that they are harder than the individual jumps. Then combinations should net the skater more points than sequences.

I think somebody once suggested giving different increasing multipliers for the first, second and third jumps in a combination or sequence so that the jump at the very end of a three jump combination gets the most bonus points so show how difficult that final jump is.

I'm not good with figures and maybe the multiplier is too high but say, the first jump in a combo or sequence just gets a multiplier of 0.1, the second jump in a combination gets 0.2 bonus and the third jump gets a 0.3 bonus (sequnce bonuses could be less for the 2nd and third jumps).

So that 3T+2T would get 5.83 (compared to 5.4 now)
and 2T+3T would get 6.13 (compared to 5.4 now)

3T+2T+2T would get 7.26 (compared to 6.3 now)
but 2T+2T+3T would get 7.86 (compared to 6.3 now)

3T+3T+3Lp would get 16.06 (compared to 13.3 now)

3A+1Lp+3F would get 16.84 (compared to 14.3 now)

But the best thing would probably result in more sequences being attempted by skaters because of the lack of penalty in doing them.

[johndockley92]

I'm not good with figures and maybe the multiplier is too high but say, the first jump in a combo or sequence just gets a multiplier of 0.1, the second jump in a combination gets 0.2 bonus and the third jump gets a 0.3 bonus (sequnce bonuses could be less for the 2nd and third jumps).

So that 3T+2T would get 5.83 (compared to 5.4 now)
and 2T+3T would get 6.13 (compared to 5.4 now)

3T+2T+2T would get 7.26 (compared to 6.3 now)
but 2T+2T+3T would get 7.86 (compared to 6.3 now)

3T+3T+3Lp would get 16.06 (compared to 13.3 now)

3A+1Lp+3F would get 16.84 (compared to 14.3 now)

But the best thing would probably result in more sequences being attempted by skaters because of the lack of penalty in doing them.

I love this idea. It'd encourage more creativity, such as seeing combinations of 3T + 2t + 3T and such. The SOV as they are now don't reward a skater enough for jumps that are so difficult, a triple toe at the end of a combination is worth the same as a triple toe by itself, despite being incredibly more difficult.

Removing a penalty from sequences would also fix the current problem in pairs where a 3 jump combo (typically with weak unison) is encouraged over a 2A + 2A sequence because under the current system the 2A + 2A is worth 5.28 and a 2A + 2t + 2t is worth 5.9 and has less difficulty. Removing the 20% penalty would put the 2A sequence at 6.6 points, where it should be.

In addition, removing penalties from sequences would allow some creativity in singles skating that is lacking.

[leafygreens]

Has anyone done a 2T-3T on purpose?

[l'etoile]

Has anyone done a 2T-3T on purpose?

Not on purpose, but I think Akiko or Kanako did it last season in their sp instead of intended 3t-3t.

[Mafke]

Has anyone done a 2T-3T on purpose?

I don't know about the 2T-3t but 2R*-3T used to be common as the combination in the SP when a double loop was a required part of the combination (Debi Thomas did it in 88 olys and worlds and Midori Ito had a 2R-3R combination) I like the rhythm of the 2-3 combos and are something I miss and would like to see back.

*R= Rittberger or Loop (different names for the same jump)

[briancoogaert]

Has anyone done a 2T-3T on purpose?

As Mafke said, 2T-3T was a common combinaison back in the late 80's, early 90's.
Nancy Kerrigan and Surya Bonaly did them in the SP when they were not attempting 3Lz/2T.

[gkelly]

Has anyone done a 2T-3T on purpose?

I used to call that combination the Richard Callaghan special, because I'd seen it from several of his skaters in the 1990s, including Todd Eldredge and Tara Lipinski.

I thought of it as either a training technique for triple-triple combinations and/or an opportunity to include a triple toe combination that was easier than a 3-3 but more difficult than 3T+2T.

And yes, it was also a short program combination for some skaters as briancoogaert mentioned, intended to be more difficult than 3T+2T, especially for ladies before they were allowed to do 3T+3T in the short.

[Clytie]

I have to say I am not a huge Plushy fan but I love that he did a 3A/3F. I think he is the only skater I have seen do it. Going outside the box tech wise. I also think he did it in 2 worlds.

[kosjenka]

I also respect Plushenko for going for 3a-3f. That combination is really impressive.
I dont remember seeing anything as amazing past 4 years.

[Seerek]

In the 1980 Olympics, Robin Cousins had a 2 loop - 3 toe combination, which was more difficult than what Jan Hoffman and Charles Tickner were attempting.

Scott Hamilton finished 2nd the 1984 Olympics short program with a 2 loop - 3 toe combination, though most of the other men's contenders were attempted 3 lutz - 2 loop.

Elaine Zayak did 2 lutz-3 toe and even 2 axel-3 toe (but stopped after 1982).
Up until 1984, Katarina Witt did 2 lutz - 3 toe in the long program.
Sanda Dubravcic did 2 flip - 3 toe as the short program combination in 1979.
Debi Thomas flipped between 2 loop - 3 toe and 2 toe - 3 toe between 1986-1988 for the short program combination (whatever was required that year).
Midori Ito had 2 loop - 3 loop as the short program combination in 1984, 1986 and 1988.
Simone Koch and Evelyn Grossmann also used 2 loop - 3 toe as their short program combinations.

[Vash01]

I miss 3A + 3T and 3A + 3F (by Plushenko).
I found it more powerful than combos with quads to be honest...

The 3A-3f by Plushenko is one of THE most difficult combinations (he has to do a half loop in between to do the flip). Something that difficult needs to be rewarded. IMO just adding points for two triples is unfair.

[Vash01]

This is not the best but it is where I first saw him performing it - 2002 Olympic free skate . 1:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhIiisXRBys

This is fine. He also did it later- may be in 2005; I am not sure of the year.

[Vash01]

Has anyone done a 2T-3T on purpose?

I don't know about 2t-3t, but Midori did a 2L-3t at the 1992 Oly LP. However, it was not intentional. She had intended it to be a 3L-3t.

[gkelly]

I don't know about 2t-3t, but Midori did a 2L-3t at the 1992 Oly LP. However, it was not intentional. She had intended it to be a 3L-3t.

Her countrywoman did the same thing, it appears, in the SP at 1998 Worlds. Bad camera angle switch on the second jump, but it looks like a (downgradable) triple attempt.