Virtue and Moir #22 - To Russia with love

[pani]

They spend time with Monica Lewinsky. She now move to London

Are you OK with geography and who she is?

[skatingfan12]

I think I may have been presumptuous to say 90% of casual skating watchers would enjoy D/W more, but I think it is more than a 50/50 split.

Will the rousing/entertainment-style of skating automatically win them an Olympic gold medal? No, definitely not. It’s likely going to come down to who performs best and gets their levels the day of the competition.

However, I think those casual watchers tend to appreciate D/W skate to music that’s recognizable to the masses. Back to my analogy of Dancing With the Stars, contestants dance to song that are pretty identifiable, popular songs whether they’re dancing to the rhumba, waltz, etc. They enjoy programs where they know the music (i.e. Eleanor Rigby, Phantom, “On the Floor” in their Latin SD) or something they can clap along to (Die Fledermaus, Giselle). Dick Button once made a comment about their skating that was something like, “I was sitting at the edge of my seat the whole time!” and I think it’s just the feeling non-skating fans would have about D/W. I think this just works better to people who don’t have clue about skating. A few of D/W’s programs have become show/exhibition programs and it’s easy to see why, since these program are entertaining and they work so well when being performed to a crowd.

This is in contrast to a program like Mahler where it seems like your seeing a special moment between two people and it’s not overtly extroverted. Many people have said Tessa and Scott show the relationship between a man and woman and that’s something I agree with, but sometimes these intimate moments don’t suck you in right now and it takes a couple of times to truly appreciate, which most casual watchers don’t see.

In regards, lots of people talking about, away from this thread, that “Carmen” is an extremely divisive program – you either absolutely love it and absolutely hate it, and not much in between.

[elle123]

I think it all boils down to personal preference. Those with no figure skating/ice dancing knowledge are going to choose whichever program speaks to them personally. They aren't going to be able to fathom how difficult element A or B is. Whether it's the music, choreo, performance or costuming - it's hard to tell who's going to like what.
I think sometimes we get too caught up into what OTHER people like or don't like and get personally offended (I suffer from this from time to time as well), when all that matters is what YOU like. It would be another story if crowds had a say in who the winner or had any weight with the judging panel, but luckily for us it doesn't.
With that being said: GO CARMEN

[pani]

With that being said: GO CARMEN

Go, Canada, go
I think they will change costumes for SD. At least Tessa. What do you think? Or its not enough time untill GPF?

[Cherub721]

Scott might change considering that his friends made fun of him during SC.

[Emdee]

At the rate we are going we will have to pick a new thread title before the GPF so all of you put your thinking caps on.

My choice is:

GO CARMEN GO!

[Cherub721]

At the rate we are going we will have to pick a new thread title before the GPF so all of you put your thinking caps on.

Amazing considering V&M "only have 2 or 3 fans" isn't it?

[Proustable]

"Dance Me to the End of Love" - both a reference to Carmen and Leonard Cohen. A little downbeat, but given the FD's ending.....

[naan]

It's a little presumptuous to believe that 90% of an audience who didn't know anything about skating would end up like D/W over V/M. My guess is it would be far lower than that. I've watched skating with several family members who know nothing about it, and most of them seem to prefer V/M... I'm definitely not convinced that D/W are somehow automatically preferable by most spectators. My experiences have certainly shown that not to be true. My guess is that it would likely be closer to 50/50...

I am one of casual skating watchers who don't know anything about ice dance since I usually watch singles, but I prefer V/M over D/W. Not only me, but most of my friends and family prefer V/M. I think Tessa and Scott are very popular in Asia, especially in Korea and China. (Japanese people love them, but they may prefer D/W since they had many chances to skate in Japan )

sometimes it may be also the chemistry between the dancers that can draw in the casual viewer, when you sense the warmth and the harmony between two people displayed on the ice. especially with a gourgeous looking couple, plus beautiful costumes etc. these may be among the reasons why casual audience may prefer our Tessa an Scott. this year the sexual chemistry will hit such level that it will be difficult not to buy (((((:

This. I think this is why Tessa and Scott are beloved by Asian fans

[girlscouse62]

Yes love this

"Dance Me to the End of Love" - both a reference to Carmen and Leonard Cohen. A little downbeat, but given the FD's ending.....

[Sahararainfall]

The analogy works fine for me and I am ex third world too. Once you take away what people see as elitist/offensive their (T&S) movement is high end in the artistic sense while in the case of D&W more is actually less.

However, keep in mind when it comes to consumption of luxury goods the third world is very much the first world.

If in terms of quality of movement, the analogy fits, (and I totally agree) but it could also be (mis)interpreted as only people who can afford luxury goods can appreciate T/S, like they are a team that cannot reach the masses and I don't think that is true at all so I'm a little uncomfortable with that.

However, I think those casual watchers tend to appreciate D/W skate to music that’s recognizable to the masses. Back to my analogy of Dancing With the Stars, contestants dance to song that are pretty identifiable, popular songs whether they’re dancing to the rhumba, waltz, etc. They enjoy programs where they know the music (i.e. Eleanor Rigby, Phantom, “On the Floor” in their Latin SD) or something they can clap along to (Die Fledermaus, Giselle). Dick Button once made a comment about their skating that was something like, “I was sitting at the edge of my seat the whole time!” and I think it’s just the feeling non-skating fans would have about D/W. I think this just works better to people who don’t have clue about skating. A few of D/W’s programs have become show/exhibition programs and it’s easy to see why, since these program are entertaining and they work so well when being performed to a crowd.

T/S have proven they can do that rousing/entertaining style in the form of the Latin FD. First and only complete performance and it brought the house down. It was also well received in its show/ex version. They just chose not to do that style every freaking year because they can do something else. On the other hand...well, never mind.

I am one of casual skating watchers who don't know anything about ice dance since I usually watch singles, but I prefer V/M over D/W. Not only me, but most of my friends and family prefer V/M. I think Tessa and Scott are very popular in Asia, especially in Korea and China. (Japanese people love them, but they may prefer D/W since they had many chances to skate in Japan )

This. I think this is why Tessa and Scott are beloved by Asian fans

And here I am hoping for another cheesy commercial.

[Carmen Ovsiannikov]

Thank you once again for a great post, Carmen, you hit the chore of the problem as always and you express your thoughts so well
About Tessa and Scott's spins, contrary to what iNap thinks (), i personally find them one of the highest emotional points of all their programs and this since Umbrella. They are also so in tune with the rithm and the mood of the music and they approach them with perfect expression.

....didn't TAT say one that they use the technical element to express the music?

...Their FD spin is spectacular this year. It's one of the rare times I've seen a spin that is truly choreographed to add to a program, rather than just be a pretty thing that fits the overall theme.

Thanks martyross.

I do think that V&M's dance spin in Carmen is gorgeous. It's clear that they have recognized the need to improve that element and it also stays with the theme of the program. I love how Scott holds Tessa's foot through the changes of position and in the exit. Yet another way to make a required element interesting; more than just something that is there because it needs to be.

I think it's fine to analyze each element, so long as in the end, you don't miss out that it's the whole package that counts.

To give credit where credit is due, D/W are fabulous spinners. As much as I love V/M and as much as I think they really are clearly the far, far better team overall, D/W own that element and they own it even when you start to look at the spins that the pairs are doing as well. They don't lose speed and they tend to stay perfectly centered. When so many teams--dance and pairs--can't manage those things, it's really quite impressive.

....

What gerbil said.

I think Tessa and Scott recognized that they needed to have all their bases covered. Granted, they have always come across as the type of team who would work to improve themselves anyway but V&M probably also recognized that they can't leave anything to chance.

[Proustable]

Am I the only one that actually like some of their previous dance spins?

Pink Floyd: Great positions, interesting fluidity and transitions, superb match. Not the fastest, admittedly, but they stay reasonably well centered too.
Mahler: Entry right after the lift is so smooth you could wipe a baby's tears with it. Positions elegant. Nuance and emotion perfect (look how Scott withdraws his hand to his body).

I love the Carmen spin for reasons people have articulated, but don't think that it was an element they had to work on. D/W have nutsy speed and difficult positions, though.

[zilam98]

continuing the theme of audience appeal vs. judges' approval, why doesnt ISU sell figureskating further by making it a reality show? they might get the arena audience to vote a la America's Funniest Home Videos system or bring a host to coordinate tv viewers' timing of phone-in/online/text votes--then add the judges' scores to the audience scores to determine the winner a la The Voice?

who knows they might get the tv viewership they've wanted for so long?

[professordeb]

If in terms of quality of movement, the analogy fits, (and I totally agree) but it could also be (mis)interpreted as only people who can afford luxury goods can appreciate T/S, like they are a team that cannot reach the masses and I don't think that is true at all so I'm a little uncomfortable with that.



T/S have proven they can do that rousing/entertaining style in the form of the Latin FD. First and only complete performance and it brought the house down. It was also well received in its show/ex version. They just chose not to do that style every freaking year because they can do something else. On the other hand...well, never mind.



And here I am hoping for another cheesy commercial.

I can understand why you wouldn't finish that line cause if you did, even though we are in a V/M topic, you'd get hammered for saying something negative about certain team(s). It has seemed to me also that some teams stick to what is tried and true and works for them. They seldom seem to go out of their comfort zone, everything seems to be about being fast when I'm looking for finish. Oh well, that's OK. I prefer Tessa & Scott. I just adore BOTH of their programs this season, even with the glitches.

[jl22aries]

Zilam Yup, let's push to mass market the sport and aim for a more broad common denomination (I was going to write "lowest"...but there are some very sharp individuals I know who LOVE a good "My Gypsy Wedding" or "insert reality television show name" Hi guys!)

I knew nothing about ice dance in 2007 when I first saw VM skate (I avoided the discipline, just wasn't compelled by it), and loved them immediately.

I also looove their Carmen spin. These days I actually youtube-skip the spins in almost all the disciplines, bypassing 30 seconds of the program I'm just not interested in seeing. Not this spin.

[iNap]

This is in contrast to a program like Mahler where it seems like your seeing a special moment between two people and it’s not overtly extroverted. Many people have said Tessa and Scott show the relationship between a man and woman and that’s something I agree with, but sometimes these intimate moments don’t suck you in right now and it takes a couple of times to truly appreciate, which most casual watchers don’t see.

These causal watcher not know what they are missing V-M programs so greate Funny face suck more at end of season for elite fans

[professordeb]

POTO is more rousing than Mahler. Hip Hip Chin Chin is easier to clap to than Il Postino. Die Fledermaus is peppier than Funny Face. It's that simple.

I would expect V&M to get the audience nod this year not because they're better, but because Carmen has a better beat than Notre Dame.

I'm sorry but I'm still giggling from your post. When I finished reading this response all I could think of was "it's got a good beat and I can dance to it" from a show I grew up watching/listening/and trying to learn to dance -- American Bandstand with Dick Clark. I realize that's not a reason for liking a particular dance but sometimes it has made it more enjoyable to watch multiple times V&M's Mahler over something like B&K's March With Me (and I was a rather big fan of B&K -- still loving my Shae-Bo!).

However, that being said, just because I may enjoy a piece of music doesn't mean I enjoy the skating to it. I loved the music from the movie Ghost but cringed when watching I/K skate to some of the same music. For me, it seems there needs to be a harmony between the music and what I see on the ice -- a good marriage, if you will.

Skating has been a good sport to me -- I've learned to appreciate some good/interesting music that I would never have heard before. I've also learned to appreciate difference in interpretion to music and what each team can bring to the ice -- well most of the time.

[flowerpower]

Am I the only one that actually like some of their previous dance spins?

Pink Floyd: Great positions, interesting fluidity and transitions, superb match. Not the fastest, admittedly, but they stay reasonably well centered too.
Mahler: Entry right after the lift is so smooth you could wipe a baby's tears with it. Positions elegant. Nuance and emotion perfect (look how Scott withdraws his hand to his body).

I love the Carmen spin for reasons people have articulated, but don't think that it was an element they had to work on. D/W have nutsy speed and difficult positions, though.

Though I'm not sold on spins as an ice dance element, if they have to be there, I appreciate ones that contribute to the story. When Scott touches Tessa's face in the Carmen FD spin, that creates a moment of tenderness which Carmen allows Don Jose (and of course it also makes the spin much more difficult). I love the alignment of their legs in that spin position. The way he holds her blade, then brings her out of the spin, suggests that at that moment Don Jose may have the upper hand, or perhaps that Carmen has let down her guard - not for long of course. I remember liking the Pink Floyd spin positions also.

[walei]

I like FF's dance spin, Tessa's hand positions were so delicate and the way she plays with her skirt.