Virtue and Moir #22 - To Russia with love

[sequins]

Thank you so much for those gems. I'm LMAO reading the articles. Remember the "ice dance sex scandal" special made about U&Z and G&P on T.V.? It's on youtube. Ah, sex scandals, partner swaps, name changes, platinum blonde hair, violet dyed boots, fake reporters harassing skaters...

So you made me go on youtube and look it up. I don't think it's the one you mean but the one I saw wow! I didn't know Maia accused Zhulin of physical abuse? Time sometimes makes you forget but man that Pasha/Oksana was something else.

[lulu]

So you made me go on youtube and look it up. I don't think it's the one you mean but the one I saw wow! I didn't know Maia accused Zhulin of physical abuse? Time sometimes makes you forget but man that Pasha/Oksana was something else.

I'm not sure which one you saw, this is a new one just uploaded this week: http://youtu.be/j9iGnlrz5Us. The one I'm refering to, and I can't seem to find it at this moment, was one which featured a reinactment of the infamous Spago bar fight, complete with grainy b&w camera work and actors in wigs playing the main parts.

Anyway, reminding myself that this a V&W thread, Best of luck to Tessa & Scott at the GPF.

[elle123]

The Russians definitely bring the drama ... on and off the ice

I personally don't mind going on these types of tangents, especially when there's a lull between competitions. I am anticipating the GPF and the battle between V/M and D/W. I'm definitely going to miss this rivalry once one of these teams retire.

[flowerpower]

I find them to be very talented althletes with the ability to perform some of the most difficult elements in the world. They are also very fast and despite V&M's improvement in that area still have the best dance spins in the field.

I certainly give D/W credit for their skills (and have never dissed them), however the issue for me is the question of what distinguishes ice dance as a discipline from pairs, and what has historically been valued in the best ice dancers (e.g. musicality, unison, close skating, neat feet with precision and control, edgework, timing, line, posture, stretch, finesse, emotion, speed but not at the expense of control). Similar to many things that are valued in off-ice forms of dance (which I also love). Spins are singles/pairs elements historically, they were never part of dance and I'd personally rather see them dropped from ice dance programs. To me they don't add anything to a dance program - let the pairs skaters do them!

V/M already possessed the ice dance qualities I most value, but for me they have taken their skating/dancing to another level with the Carmen program and I hope they keep pushing forward, regardless of whether the judging system/judges reward it at present.

[Carmen Ovsiannikov]

I certainly give D/W credit for their skills (and have never dissed them), however the issue for me is the question of what distinguishes ice dance as a discipline from pairs, and what has historically been valued in the best ice dancers (e.g. musicality, unison, close skating, neat feet with precision and control, edgework, timing, line, posture, stretch, finesse, emotion, speed but not at the expense of control). Similar to many things that are valued in off-ice forms of dance (which I also love).

.....V/M already possessed the ice dance qualities I most value, but for me they have taken their skating/dancing to another level with the Carmen program and I hope they keep pushing forward, regardless of whether the judging system/judges reward it at present.

Oh, I completely agree with you.

I guess I was just trying to demonstrate that I do give D&W credit for what they do as I've been accused of hating D&W in the past. I get the feeling that some might feel that some of us stating that there really shouldn't be a rivalry (especially not this season) is just sour grapes and hating on them because we are V&M fans who aren't open to anyone who might be a threat to them.

I agree with everything you've listed as the criteria that icedance used to be judged on. Some things in dance are always going to be subjective but there truly are objective criteria as listed in the rules that can be applied to every team. Every thing you described above is a perfect description of V&M. Every so often the judges seem to change what they value in dance and maybe this is just one of those times. Continuing to attempt explaining why some of us feel that V&M and D&W just might not be that closely matched with one another (with clean skating on the parts of both teams) is like banging your head against the wall. And it causes bad feelings and blow ups.

I just want to see V&M finally pull everything together and skate their programs full out. I don't think I can love the Waltz and Carmen more than I already do but it should be something to behold.

[Carmen Ovsiannikov]

I'm not even sure what "equal" means in this context -- or if it means anything at all. You've just acknowledged that the different teams have different strengths and weaknesses. But we're talking about the two top teams in the world, both of whom have spent years collecting medals left and right and beating every other team in sight. If that doesn't make them as "equal" as any two teams can be, I don't know what does.

The real problem with all this talk about being "equal" or "not equal" is that it leads some fans to think that, every time their favorite team gets beat, it could ONLY be because of some kind of fraud. And that's hardly a pleasant or constructive (or realistic) attitude.

Your response demonstrates what I was trying to say. Once again any suggestion that some of us feel that D&W haven't really been that closely matched with V&M (especially not this season) is interpreted as some sort of unrealistic, unpleasant attitude caused merely by sour grapes because V&M aren't winning all the time rather than an objective look at the skating of both teams.

It's a given that most teams have strengths and weaknesses but with some teams their strengths outweigh those of other teams. All of the things I readily give D&W credit for V&M possess as well along with those criteria flowerpower listed. That V&M have speed and difficulty along with all the other things is what makes me feel that they are (at least on paper) better than D&W. What has helped D&W is that they have a higher performance level in general. For the most part they have not been hampered by the nerves (or physical issues) that V&M have thus haven't had the deductions and +GOE that V&M have.

As for teams collecting medals left and right and beating all the other teams being an indication that they are equal; by your reasoning that means that F/P&M were also an excellent deserving team. The same goes for Grishuk/Platov and we know that isn't neccesarily the truth. How many times have most of the posters at FSU stated their opinions that F/P&M were a terrible team gifted (it was bought up again in the What If? K&O thread currently going) and beneficiaries of bad judging calls. As well as C&S and L&A and Domshabs. Grishuk/Platov have also collected a load of medals and wins but people still question, debate and challenge whether or not those were deserved especially with the falls that team used to have in their skates.

Just because teams win medals and receive placements doesn't mean those medals and placements are accurate (this is just a general statement, not neccesarily directed completely at D&W).

I don't think questioning this one rivalry and wondering whether it is really is a rivalry makes people think that everytime their favorite team does not win it's because of fraud. Or maybe I give people too much credit for being able to apply the judging criteria case by case or rather team by team.

I didn't see that sentiment stated when P&B won their World bronze last year and many felt that W&P had been ripped off.

It's what I've been trying (unsuccessfully it seems) to get across that it's okay to discuss most of the other teams but something about D&W this quadrennial seems to set people off.

At this point it I'm not even sure why I bring it up anymore. Many of us have our opinions and those opinions at this late date aren't going to change. If anything, this years sets of programs have made some of us (no matter what our opinions are) more adamant in those opinions.

[MarieM]

Saying D&W are V&M's equals is a particularly funny thing because they are so far from it I sometimes wanna cry.

Just in terms of lines, extensions, posture, stretch and control, V&M are so so far ahead of anyone else. In comparison, D&W never ever corrected that and their skating always look frantic.
It's just the difference between ice dance and speed dance
Noone can accuse me of being a rabid V&M fan, and I always favored D&W because at least they were selling their crapastic programs. But this year, FINALLY, V&M have two programs worthy of their talent. It was just about time.

And don't get me started on B&K. Please

[iNap]

I certainly give D/W credit for their skills (and have never dissed them), however the issue for me is the question of what distinguishes ice dance as a discipline from pairs, and what has historically been valued in the best ice dancers (e.g. musicality, unison, close skating, neat feet with precision and control, edgework, timing, line, posture, stretch, finesse, emotion, speed but not at the expense of control). Similar to many things that are valued in off-ice forms of dance (which I also love). Spins are singles/pairs elements historically, they were never part of dance and I'd personally rather see them dropped from ice dance programs. To me they don't add anything to a dance program - let the pairs skaters do them!

V/M already possessed the ice dance qualities I most value, but for me they have taken their skating/dancing to another level with the Carmen program and I hope they keep pushing forward, regardless of whether the judging system/judges reward it at present.

I am worry they will not do this for Sochi This new system no good for V-M. Spin is bad element. Scottx had trouble with lift too and this dancers had to show lot off lifts which is not good for him. V-M will be better when liftes and spin removed. This is pair skater moves. They can show even greate emotion if they make new rules.

[Macassar88]

I am worry they will not do this for Sochi This new system no good for V-M. Spin is bad element. Scottx had trouble with lift too and this dancers had to show lot off lifts which is not good for him. V-M will be better when liftes and spin removed. This is pair skater moves. They can show even greate emotion if they make new rules.

What are you talking about? Their lifts are quite difficult and beautiful! Their spin is good as well; not the best in the world, but enough.

[IoanaC]

The spin is beautifully conceived, it just needs to be more centered, even if they don't have the greatest speed. It was better at SC than in Russia and they had higher GOE for it.

[Golightly]

iNap knows the art of trolling well. I salute you, sir (or ma'am). Tip of the hat

Sent from my Inspire 4G using Tapatalk 2

[martyross]

Thank you once again for a great post, Carmen, you hit the chore of the problem as always and you express your thoughts so well
About Tessa and Scott's spins, contrary to what iNap thinks (), i personally find them one of the highest emotional points of all their programs and this since Umbrella. They are also so in tune with the rithm and the mood of the music and they approach them with perfect expression. the fact that they don't rotate super-fast gives us the chance to admire the positions of their bodies, that always reflect the music, and also to see their facial expression. Think of the ending spin of Mahler, what a touching, restful yet poignant ending for this trascendent work of art. Who cares if they don't appear as superdifficult, supertechnical and superfast, when they are such expressive spins? in those moments the last thing i pay attention to is the technique.
didn't TAT say one that they use the technical element to express the music?

[sap5]

The spin may not appear to be superdifficult or supertechnical. That doesn't mean that it isn't both of those things.

Their FD spin is spectacular this year. It's one of the rare times I've seen a spin that is truly choreographed to add to a program, rather than just be a pretty thing that fits the overall theme.

[sequins]

I certainly give D/W credit for their skills (and have never dissed them), however the issue for me is the question of what distinguishes ice dance as a discipline from pairs, and what has historically been valued in the best ice dancers (e.g. musicality, unison, close skating, neat feet with precision and control, edgework, timing, line, posture, stretch, finesse, emotion, speed but not at the expense of control). Similar to many things that are valued in off-ice forms of dance (which I also love). Spins are singles/pairs elements historically, they were never part of dance and I'd personally rather see them dropped from ice dance programs. To me they don't add anything to a dance program - let the pairs skaters do them!

V/M already possessed the ice dance qualities I most value, but for me they have taken their skating/dancing to another level with the Carmen program and I hope they keep pushing forward, regardless of whether the judging system/judges reward it at present.

Liking this post alot and nodding my head in agreement

iNap knows the art of trolling well. I salute you, sir (or ma'am). Tip of the hat

That they do.

The spin may not appear to be superdifficult or supertechnical. That doesn't mean that it isn't both of those things.

Their FD spin is spectacular this year. It's one of the rare times I've seen a spin that is truly choreographed to add to a program, rather than just be a pretty thing that fits the overall theme.

I love it as well. It's magnificent. They may not be rewarded for it but damn I appreciate the effort.

[sap5]

There are so many things I like in the FD. I was just thinking about that twirl Scott does in he Adagio section, where he leans his head back and looks at Tessa. It's such a simple move, but so difficult to do beautifully. I'm so glad they chose to really focus on dance this season.

[Cherub721]

At the risk of sounding like a ~hater~ I never knew D&W were supposed to be such great spinners. I've never even really noticed them either way. I'll try to watch for them next time.

IMO, if we're analyzing it element by element, then we're already missing the point about what ice dancing is supposed to be.

[pani]

Now its interresting to know - where did T-S spend all this time after CoR? They were in Ottawa last week, coaches was in Japan.
So they will have one week before GPF?

And could someone help to find V-M Gala pratice from SC and grup number from SC, focusing on T-S, where they dance slow dance together.

[sequins]

At the risk of sounding like a ~hater~ I never knew D&W were supposed to be such great spinners. I've never even really noticed them either way. I'll try to watch for them next time.

That's ok to be honest I never really noticed either. I think it's because I'm such a V/M fan that I watch and rewatch and analyze (and over analyze)that I notice everything about them and while I'm a fan of other teams I just don't watch them as much I just appreciate what I see and move along... and watch V/M some more.

[Cherub721]

Proustable, I just got a chance to really look at your post from a few days ago, and since we're so far off topic already, I wanted to continue.

I totally understand your point about not being able to separate tech from artistry, and you're right, certain points of technique are in themselves artistic, like the run G&P get off a blade. However, I do think there's too much emphasis on the elements now, and not enough on the finer points. It intersects the discussion we're having now about Carmen. All of those little extra things that V&M do like him caressing her in the spin are adding difficulty, but not levels or GOE. A lot of couples IMO play it safe and try to find the easiest way to get high levels, and don't add anything extra if it won't add points. It's kind of a utilitarian approach. It's more technically challenging to perform footwork in hold close together with matching lines and pointed toes, but if that doesn't add to the marks, some dancers don't do it. Granted, not everyone did that under 6.0 either.

We completely disagree about SLC. That and Nagano are my absolute favorite Olympics, I loved almost every dance down to the 12th-15th place range. However, 1994 is my least favorite, and that was under 6.0, so I'm not necessarily saying every season of 6.0 was better than CoP.

By lower ranked, I meant outside of the top 5, and of course I like some programs, but something is missing for me. I hate to pick on the Russians, but the death of Russian ice dancing has just been excruciating to watch for me. They churn out so many dancers with great flow and beautiful long lines, but terrible, terrible programs. I think I&K with their skills would've done amazingly under 6.0, but all I can see now if their ugly lifts which they have to do to earn points and which ruin my impression of almost all their programs. And Bobrova, she is such a lovely skater, but I feel like she pushes hard down into the ice to get the edge calls on footwork, and then her posture ruins the look of the dance. Under 6.0 she would have the freedom to show off her beautiful lines in a way that looks good, and with the expressiveness we are seeing from Soloviev this season, they could create a masterpiece, which IMO they've not done. V&M are to me the only ones that do really difficult stuff and still make it look good, so I agree with you that having an artistic program with mind-blowing elements is wonderful, I just don't see it happening as often. P&B are good, but I see strain in some elements, and that takes away from the impression.

I mean, ten years ago, we could be talking about how incredible “Valse Triste” was and such a shame they couldn’t make the top ten with it, but they’d get their turn “someday.” Instead, COP allows us to point out that technically, they were in the top three and made sixth overall, despite being so low ranked that they skated first (!) in the compulsories at their first worlds. Hell, I see more technical difficulty in V/M’s “Malaguena” than in B/K’s “Riverdance,” honestly. And just as much artistry

Agree with all that. I guess I just see it as V&M being such an exquisitely rare talent and not the system necessarily. Most of my favorite CoP era dances have come from couples who started under 6.0. Out of the ones that are considered to have grown up with the new system, I like a number of them, but the only ones that truly grab me are V&M.

And even there, V&M really did come up under 6.0 to an extent. They competed at Jr Worlds under 6.0, so all of their basic training came before CoP was invented. They still had to train compulsories regularly. It will be interesting to see a whole new generation of ice dancers who weren't born until CoP was in effect. They might do a better job bridging the gap because maybe by then, everyone will be at a really high technical level and they will have to have those little extra things in their programs to distinguish themselves.

[Emdee]

Now its interresting to know - where did T-S spend all this time after CoR? They were in Ottawa last week, coaches was in Japan.
So they will have one week before GPF?

And could someone help to find V-M Gala pratice from SC and grup number from SC, focusing on T-S, where they dance slow dance together.

Probably with Swan?