11-24-2012, 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by pani
Originally Posted by pani
Originally Posted by pani
Originally Posted by pani
11-24-2012, 01:40 PM
Settle down Pani..........Tessa and Scott are working on their extra points as we speak, and we are going to see something very different by the end of the season . My concern is marking for I/K with that crappy program. Are the judges on crack?
I stand by my original opinion...that Tessa and Scott's "Carmen" is a masterpiece of a program, and that it will be skated to it's potential eventually, and when it is, there will be some huge scores. Don't forget, that program was totally revamped just before the season began and is extremely difficult.
Addicted to FSU
11-24-2012, 01:44 PM
Thanks for the responses, Cherub and Carmen O. Some thoughts
1. I cannot divorce the artistic from the technical side of things. To me, COP dance is amazing because it needs to be both. And I read so many comments of the "well, technical side wasn't as good, but the artistry was amazing" as if it's okay that the technical side wasn't there. To me that is like praising a meal despite tasting awful because it looked great on the plate, you know?
2. I definitely understand people loving the best of 6.0 dance: A/P, G/P, K/O, U/Z, K/P. But these teams were also staggeringly technical as well - G/P's running edges, K/O's skating skills, K/P's complicated choreography. When watching these ice dancers, I get the feeling that figure skating influences them just as much as ballroom. Whereas you watch Lobacheva/Averbukh’s OD and the feeling I get is that the ice is simply unnecessary (though FP/M 2000’s OD was terrific). But more than that, ballroom isn’t the only “authentic” dance style.
Since we’re talking about programs, let’s pick the last Olympic season under 6.0: Salt Lake. To me. The only truly great ice dance program was A/P’s Flamenco OD. Amazing. But nothing else even comes remotely close to that magnificence. There are entertaining dances (B/K, D/V, DenStav all had fun FDs, N/K’s OD was quite good, I felt) but in terms of being actual great programs.... nah. The season before? How many? Maybe A/P’s Beethoven FD. Of course, mileage may vary (for example, I maintain that Lobacehva/Averbukh’s Olympic FD was terrible), but I simply don’t remember these days as being the bastion of great dances. And really, greatness by definition is rare. So if we get two or three FDs that earn a spot on the permanent rotation, I’m happy with that. And we have, imo.
1997/98: G/P’s “Memorial,” K/O’s “Carmen,” A/P’s “Romeo and Juliet”
2007/2008: DelScho’s “The Piano,” DomShabs “Masquerade Waltz,” and V/M’s “Umbrellas of Cherbourg”
Some seasons are definitely stronger than others
3. I’d love to know what “lower ranked” means. Out of the top five/six? Because I’d argue that Crone/Poirier’s “Eleanor Rigby,” Ralph/Hill’s Tango, Samuelson/Bates Sailor OD, Bobrova/Soloviev’s Russian Sailor OD (heh), Chock/Zuerlein’s “Cabaret,” Capellini/Lanotte’s “Requiem for a Dream,” Hurtado/Diaz’ “Nine”... all are enjoyable programs, some even something more. One thing about praising the lower ranked skaters of the past is that often they didn’t deserve to be lower ranked. I mean, ten years ago, we could be talking about how incredible “Valse Triste” was and such a shame they couldn’t make the top ten with it, but they’d get their turn “someday.” Instead, COP allows us to point out that technically, they were in the top three and made sixth overall, despite being so low ranked that they skated first (!) in the compulsories at their first worlds. Hell, I see more technical difficulty in V/M’s “Malaguena” than in B/K’s “Riverdance,” honestly. And just as much artistry
4. A great COP dance to me, by definition, comes from the fact that everything has to be both technical and artistic. Everyone complains about the nature of the elements, but so many teams are finding creative and intriguing ways to go about their elements. Look at how http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sfDaooUGSBo#t=42 s]Robledo/Fenero enter a straight line lift.[/url] Original, daring, difficult.... and this is a junior team from a nation that didn’t even have an ice dance coach ten years ago. Unreal. But of course, elements aren’t enough. And this team, of course, isn’t top of the echelon.
5. And of course, what exactly is artistry anyway?
11-24-2012, 02:41 PM
Well the improvement I found lacking in the SD was there in the FD. I expected them to skate both programs to their potential with the time they had between SA and NHK. It was also obvious once the scores came up for I&K that D&W's FD was going to score the seasons high score as in a head to head comparison how could you put them any closer. The two things I find concerning though are the PCS, four 10´s and four 9.75 in interpretation (for instance) and the difficulty it seems to get higher levels on steps (D&W got 9.5s across the board for skating skills yet couldn't get the steps). The one thing with D&W is they tend to peak and impress early in the season and get dull as Worlds approach whereas V&M and P&B type skaters tend to take the full season to really develop their programs so I'm still hopeful but now is the time for me to test my resolve to just enjoy their programs this year, for taking up the challenge to offer something new and exciting and get on with life. It will be more telling to see what the same panel of judges do at GPF with all the top teams there on the same ice, until then I think I'll knit a sweater
11-24-2012, 03:41 PM
- Rep Power
Hello all! First post here. I'm excited there's a place to share my love for V/M with other fans! I've just skimmed through some of the latest posts... I don't think we need to worry too much about the NHK scores. As we all know, it's hard to compare scores when there are different judging panels, etc. It's obvious that everyone at NHK was scored higher than their previous competitions. Does this mean that they improved significantly since their last competitions? Maybe. Maybe not. I think it was a much more lenient panel. For comparison's sake - I'll take the top 4 finishers at NHK and compare their FD scores with their previous GP comp:
D/W - 108.62 @ NHK vs. 104.89 @ SA (increase of 3.73)
I/K - 96.66 @ NHK vs. 92.76 @ COR (increase of 3.9)
S/S - 93.72 @ NHK vs. 82.65 @ COR (increase of 11.07)
O/W - 80.34 @ NHK vs. 73.52 @ COR (increase of 6.83)
I don't want to take anything away from the above skates, but those are significant increases for ALL the teams. Let's just breathe and as bmcg says, wait until the GPF when they all skate under the same judging panel
11-24-2012, 03:42 PM
If someone needs -
I, musician, analyzed Tessa/ Scott's Carmen dance (what parts from what movements are used).
1. Parts from Section V:Carmen's Entrance and Habanera (Allegro moderato & Quasi andante)
2. Parts from Section XI: Adagio (Andante moderato & Adagio)
3. Parts from Section IX. Torero (Moderato con stoltezza)
4. Parts from Section VI. Scene (Allegro moderato, Tempo precedente & Andante assai)
11-24-2012, 03:56 PM
2 great posts......welcome both of you
Addicted to FSU
11-24-2012, 05:31 PM
they probably got wind of the complaints they got for it.
Originally Posted by Golightly
11-24-2012, 05:58 PM
It's still there a little bit but it's been toned down A LOT. If Alex Wong suggested that change than it was worth his fee
Originally Posted by zilam98
11-24-2012, 08:27 PM
What galls me is that N&K used to beat everyone on the justification of "Oh, but they have the lines," including good technical teams like Denkova/Staviyski and Delobel/Schoenfelder. Now, I actually do think N&K deserved to win in 2005 and 2006, but I never liked that they were supposed to so untouchable because of the lines.
Originally Posted by jl22aries
Now you have V&M who have better lines than anyone, and also don't have the problems that N&K had (empty programs, too much posing, repetitive lifts, unequal partners), and of course, they're not unbeatable. It's just so Obviously it all depends on the politics/preferences of the day.
11-24-2012, 09:59 PM
O really? I had same feeling about V-M
Originally Posted by Carmen Ovsiannikov
11-25-2012, 12:07 AM
I know I have repeated myself so many times in this thread - but I saw no real reason for T & S to keep on going after earning an Olympic and World gold medal in the slippery sport of ice dancing unless they stretched themselves and attempted to stretch the sport. Personal preferences aside - I feel "Carmen" is a perfect vehicle for them to do that. Will it win every dust up with D & W - or will everyone think it is as amazing as some of their most ardent fans - maybe not - but I believe they will be remembered for it. I have watched it so many times already and I am loving the ride it takes me on. For me, they are really combining sport and art and I feel a whole mixture of emotions each time I watch it. I feel I have always wanted something like this for them - and I am so happy to be along for the ride as they perfect it and further develop it.
11-25-2012, 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by puglover
The way I see it, win Worlds or not, this is a masterpiece that will be remembered years from now. I am happy with that. Yes, I'm still not thinking about them winning Worlds, I am more eager to see how the program evolves from here. I love it passionately.
11-25-2012, 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by IoanaC
Exactly, no way should D&W be close this season to V&M when they skate Carmen clean & like they can, for D&W to get that score at NHK is ridiculous imo. However all teams scored way higher than there last GP outing so the judging was probably soft in the FD imo.
At GPF there should be NO competition, if V&M skate Carmen like they can & D&W still beat them, well then I will believe there is as Chris Dean once said.....more going on OFF the ice rather than ON it...
Last edited by Lissa; 11-25-2012 at 01:03 AM.
11-25-2012, 12:59 AM
Originally Posted by walei
That says it all right there......I&K getting 97 with that awful program means giving a 108 to D&W was not that impressive cause clearly they were OVER scoring everyone again.
11-25-2012, 01:03 AM
So do I.
Originally Posted by Golightly
I keep remembering what they said in the IFS magazine about Worlds in London being the highlight of their career and making the town proud. It's so thrilling and daunting at the same time. But you're right, it's too early to think about that.
11-25-2012, 05:38 AM
v/m debut carmen: d/w fans relinquish all hope of winning worlds
d/w score well: v/m fans relinquish all hope of winning gpf and worlds
11-25-2012, 05:45 AM
We worried ourselves silly over FF last season and that worked out just fine, we fretted over Mahler in 2010 now it's legendary. I'm not climbing on board again this season. Win or lose I, and much of the skating world, love this program and it will be remembered and it will be legendary when all is said and done. NHK is not Worlds and ya if they are gonna give I/K that kinda score with that craptacular program then I can see how D/W marks are justified. Nice to see they toned down the 'stuff' after the program ended, they don't need that garbage. That said aside from V/M I really only love B/S FD this season The Shibs and W/P I like but not totally on board yet.
11-25-2012, 07:37 AM
The scores that tuile broke down put things a bit more into perspective. Thanks tuile.
Placements aside, I wholeheatedly agree about the place "Carmen" will have in figureskating history. It truly is magnificent whether it wins or or not and it is extemely gratifying to see how well received it has been. Not only by V&M's fans but also those who haven't neccesarily been huge fans of Tessa and Scott's past work and by some pretty huge names in the sport. Even TAT.
I also love watching Carmen over and over again. I've discovered that each time I watch it, I still get that same feeling I got the first time I saw it in it's entirety. It's as if I just seen it for the first time all over again. There is always something I notice in the next viewing that I may not have noticed the first time. Hopefully unlike some of us (I'm including myself in that), V&M are focusing on their performance and not so much on placements no matter what we think they deserve. If they can forget about placement and just skate then think things may just fall into place.
Proustable, great post.
When I use the term "lower ranked" it's not meant as a put down but yes I am referring to skaters outside of the top 5. Skaters who we pretty much know won't be contending for medals. It's true that before this quadrennial the field was so deep that many of the teams out side the top 5 (in the lower top 10 and even right outside the top 10) were just as deserving as some of the top teams. Some even better, they were just "waiting their turns" as they had the misfortune of not being the top team from their respective countries. Granted that wasn't always true but most of the time, not going into Europeans and/or Worlds as the champion from your country effected your placement. At least in icedance.
I also agree that what one person thinks of as a classic program would be rather "meh" to another. Looking back I realize that being a huge fan of certain teams will effect how highly regarded some of those programs are and at times which programs we might think of as classics that will be watched over and over again and still talked about years later. For me I would say DelShoes' "Frida", The Piano and The Untouchables would be in that category but when I look back, I'm not sure those programs though they are still on my list of programs I still adore were as well received and widely talked about as past programs such as Bolero, K&P's Bach, U&Z's Four Seasons and "Savage Rites" as skated by the Dushesnay's. I think Carmen is definitely in the Bolero, Four Seasons, Savage Rites category.
11-25-2012, 08:13 AM
much as I loved T/D, Bolero was not one of my favs. Loved Mack and Mable, Barnum, Song of India. I love Carmen much more than Bolero. Imo, I think this Carmen is a stand alone masterpiece in the making.