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  1. #361

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    Quote Originally Posted by sap5 View Post
    What I mean is that I felt they had much more to give than what their programs in the past have shown.
    You will feel this way in any case, because you are D-W uber. So try to ask Meryl to work on her lines and stop doing ballet

  2. #362

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    Quote Originally Posted by IoanaC View Post
    Every program of theirs capitalized on their skating and dancing skills. Yes, Carmen is the best and most mature so far, but it's not like, until now, they had just stepped on the ice, acted in love and won titles.
    Yes, but why do you think D-W uber, who never ask from D-W even to try to dance on ice, will see this? Just ignore. Disney its all about D-W its understanding.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by sap5 View Post
    I know Marina believes that the "connection" V/M have is what sets them apart, but I'd love to see a non-love program one day. Maybe something akin to the Kerrs' "Muse" program (which I know is also about love, but not the typical romantic stuff Zoueva loves to give to V/M). There are many different ways to express a "connection" between two people.
    ITA with this. I think the Pink Floyd FD fits your description of capitalizing on their skills without being in lurve, but I really really want to see that go much farther next year.

    You have to admit though, it's not just V&M. Successful ice dance programs usually involve love or lust... Bolero, Air, Carmina Burana, various Carmens, Mahler et al, Romeo & Juliet, The Feelng Begins, Blues for Klook, Tosca, Spartacus, Masquerade Waltz.

    So now I'm trying to think of winning FDs that don't deal with love/passion/sensuality (tango/ballroom counts as romantic unless it's decidedly modern or danced by the Shibutanis ) ... 7 Deadly Sins, K&O's African Drums, Man in the Iron Mask, Libertas, Time for Peace, Adagio (B&K and DenSta), Memorial, Missing... it's not quite as common but it's certainly doable and I hope V&M do something like that next year. I really want them to do something like Missing.

  4. #364

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    ITA with this. I think the Pink Floyd FD fits your description of capitalizing on their skills without being in lurve, but I really really want to see that go much farther next year.

    You have to admit though, it's not just V&M. Successful ice dance programs usually involve love or lust... Bolero, Air, Carmina Burana, various Carmens, Mahler et al, Romeo & Juliet, The Feelng Begins, Blues for Klook, Tosca, Spartacus, Masquerade Waltz.

    So now I'm trying to think of winning FDs that don't deal with love/passion/sensuality (tango/ballroom counts as romantic unless it's decidedly modern or danced by the Shibutanis ) ... 7 Deadly Sins, K&O's African Drums, Man in the Iron Mask, Libertas, Time for Peace, Adagio (B&K and DenSta), Memorial, Missing... it's not quite as common but it's certainly doable and I hope V&M do something like that next year. I really want them to do something like Missing.
    Hope no. D-W or Shibs must thinking about this. Why not to try to respect that V-M put modernn moves and music feelings with such great connetction with each other& At least V-M look more mature this season then all other teams. Sorry, but its amazing how V-M all the time didnt made what they need
    Like one person said- any dance its relation between mad and a woman in different stage of there lives.

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    Hope no. D-W or Shibs must thinking about this. Why not to try to respect that V-M put modernn moves and music feelings with such great connetction with each other& At least V-M look more mature this season then all other teams. Sorry, but its amazing how V-M all the time didnt made what they need
    Like one person said- any dance its relation between mad and a woman in different stage of there lives.
    I get what you're saying as well. V&M's chemistry is a strength, so why not use it? That's what Zhulin said - they are one of the only couples who can really show the relationship between a man and a woman. Using that for the Olympics is good strategy no doubt. I would just like to see them go in a different direction because a) I think they can do it, and b) I would love to show all the naysayers who think they only do first love that they can do the exact opposite style just as well as anyone. Since next year is probably their last FD ever () that's the time to do it cause most skaters just skate to GFBs in pros nowadays unfortunately.

    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    You will feel this way in any case, because you are D-W uber. So try to ask Meryl to work on her lines and stop doing ballet
    Lol, I'm pretty sure Marina has asked Meryl to do that. It's not as simple as sending her a memo.

    I've never thought of sap5 as a D&W uber... if he/she is, then they aren't one of the vocal or bashy ones, so why not leave it alone? sap5 has been nothing but respectful and civil in this thread even if we don't always agree with each other, and the discussions are very interesting. I see no need to disregard his/her opinions just because they might like D&W, as long as it's not done in a way that attacks V&M, which it isn't. Bashing D&W does not help in any way.

  6. #366
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    ahem, sorry to interrupt the discussion ^^; just wanted to post this
    look at these close-ups of the moment the Toreador music begins:
    http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6...923h23m57r.png
    http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/1...1923h24m36.png
    it really looks like Scott is screaming of anger and madness, but Tessa is certainly not intimidated!
    this moment actually frightens me for the sudden violence of their movements after the soft, dreaming moments of "La fleur". it is really a burst of violent emotion right on the explosion of the music.
    the strongest they make it, the better. the same should be when an orchestra plays it, certain parts of Carmen should be executed so loud to the point
    of almost scaring people out.
    their faces in those screen-shots, as well as the following moves, reminds me of expressionist paintings, where the shape of the human face is altered because of some terrible inner distress.
    imo there should be a non-stop closing-up on their faces during this dance!

  7. #367

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    Bashing D&W does not help in any way.
    Bashing V-M didnt help D-W no? Honestly i dont like when people try to made impression they are V-M fans, but form there messages its understanding they try to claim them down every time.
    Its interesting to read someone opinion, who dont care about any team and try to express there thoughts about ice dance in general. But not when any D-W are super and V-M never did nothing good from D-W ubers.

    I would love to show all the naysayers who think they only do first love that they can do the exact opposite style just as well as anyon
    O, now even "Carmen" is a first love. I dont think i have any argue anymore But guys, you need to choose - is this first love or pornography

    Yes, it was much better, when W-P showed love on ice last season and people in Canada put then at first place in there minds. And ofcouse, V-M need to show two robots at OG for give D-W gold in Sochi, because they have one.
    Last edited by pani; 11-19-2012 at 11:03 PM.

  8. #368

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    it really looks like Scott is screaming of anger and madness, but Tessa is certainly not intimidated!

  9. #369

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I get what you're saying as well. V&M's chemistry is a strength, so why not use it? That's what Zhulin said - they are one of the only couples who can really show the relationship between a man and a woman. Using that for the Olympics is good strategy no doubt. I would just like to see them go in a different direction because a) I think they can do it, and b) I would love to show all the naysayers who think they only do first love that they can do the exact opposite style just as well as anyone. Since next year is probably their last FD ever () that's the time to do it cause most skaters just skate to GFBs in pros nowadays unfortunately.
    I don't think they'll go abstract next season precisely because it will be their last, as well as being the Olympic year. To be honest, I'm not sure I want them to do that kind of FD either. Of course they could do it - and the naysayers would continue to criticize anyway. After all, Klimova & Ponomarenko never did an abstract program and that certainly hasn't hurt their legacy. Whatever they skate to, I trust them to make it unique. Finding out how they've made the switch from the first Carmen to the second makes me trust their judgement even more.

  10. #370

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    So --- I am absolutely the most ecstatic figure skating fan ever as my husband just surprised me with tickets to Canadians. I would love to go every year but this year I was dying (no pun intended) to go and see them do Carmen live. I do have to get through my daughter's wedding first but boy do I ever have a great reward to look forward to.
    pug lover

  11. #371

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    Quote Originally Posted by IoanaC View Post
    Whatever they skate to, I trust them to make it unique. Finding out how they've made the switch from the first Carmen to the second makes me trust their judgement even more.
    Now i have the same thoughts. Before i had some ideas for them, but after i saw Carmen... Dont care about music, they will made something super and they now grow up

  12. #372

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    Quote Originally Posted by puglover View Post
    So --- I am absolutely the most ecstatic figure skating fan ever as my husband just surprised me with tickets to Canadians. I would love to go every year but this year I was dying (no pun intended) to go and see them do Carmen live. I do have to get through my daughter's wedding first but boy do I ever have a great reward to look forward to.
    I am sure you will enjoy this FD. Especially i think at Nationals it will lokk better, then at the begining of the season.

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    yea.. in my book love and lust are not the same things and Carmen and Josè don't even love each other. otherwise, they wouldn't try to destroy each other as soon as troubles show up in this FD Tessa and Scott tried something really different, that goes well beyond a banal "love" story. as much as they're connected (especially through their stares) their souls are basically separated. they are both alone, not together, because each one has an agenda about their relationship. "La fleur" is just a temporary moment of harmony but it's evident that it can't last long. i think that the whole choreography speaks of unevenness and hardship, much more than "love". forgive my horrible english! :/(

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    Quote Originally Posted by puglover View Post
    So --- I am absolutely the most ecstatic figure skating fan ever as my husband just surprised me with tickets to Canadians. I would love to go every year but this year I was dying (no pun intended) to go and see them do Carmen live. I do have to get through my daughter's wedding first but boy do I ever have a great reward to look forward to.
    i envy you a lot! (((:

  15. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by IoanaC View Post
    I don't think they'll go abstract next season precisely because it will be their last, as well as being the Olympic year. To be honest, I'm not sure I want them to do that kind of FD either. Of course they could do it - and the naysayers would continue to criticize anyway. After all, Klimova & Ponomarenko never did an abstract program and that certainly hasn't hurt their legacy. Whatever they skate to, I trust them to make it unique. Finding out how they've made the switch from the first Carmen to the second makes me trust their judgement even more.
    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    Now i have the same thoughts. Before i had some ideas for them, but after i saw Carmen... Dont care about music, they will made something super and they now grow up
    I´ll be the third to agree. Seeing how they handled Carmen I have complete faith they can take any warhorse and give us something fresh and exciting. And if you have a quality that no one else possesses among your competitors, something that sets you apart from everyone else, something that coaches, officials and your peers comment on as an admirable quality you would be a fool to not use it. It would be like asking D&W (for instance) to not skate so fast (and some people want them to slow down and finish their moves more but they don't, because they know speed is their ace in the hole). More times than not when men and women dance together there is some level of sexuality to it. Even in Pink Floyd there were moves in that program that I found sexual (if you ever watched the movie The Wall when the animated flowers come on and think of that lift where she leaps into his arms it's exactly what I thought of at the time, one of the reasons it blew me away).

  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by martyross View Post
    their faces in those screen-shots, as well as the following moves, reminds me of expressionist paintings, where the shape of the human face is altered because of some terrible inner distress.
    I love that description! That's the mark of a good program... you can screencap any split second and you can see the story being told. Scott Hamilton used to say something similar about Oksana Baiul... you could freezeframe any part and she was in perfect position.

    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post


    O, now even "Carmen" is a first love. I dont think i have any argue anymore But guys, you need to choose - is this first love or pornography
    You know I didn't mean Carmen was first love or pornography.

    Quote Originally Posted by IoanaC View Post
    I don't think they'll go abstract next season precisely because it will be their last, as well as being the Olympic year. To be honest, I'm not sure I want them to do that kind of FD either. Of course they could do it - and the naysayers would continue to criticize anyway. After all, Klimova & Ponomarenko never did an abstract program and that certainly hasn't hurt their legacy. Whatever they skate to, I trust them to make it unique. Finding out how they've made the switch from the first Carmen to the second makes me trust their judgement even more.
    Probably so. K&P's Lawrence of Arabia was abstract (he was supposed to be the sand and she was wind), but your point is right, they relied on their romantic connection just as much as V&M have ever done if not more. And I agree, I trust their judgment and I'm sure whatever they do will be great. I never expected something as voidy as Carmen, and I couldn't be more pleased with their programs this year.

    Quote Originally Posted by puglover View Post
    So --- I am absolutely the most ecstatic figure skating fan ever as my husband just surprised me with tickets to Canadians. I would love to go every year but this year I was dying (no pun intended) to go and see them do Carmen live. I do have to get through my daughter's wedding first but boy do I ever have a great reward to look forward to.
    Awesome! I wonder if they'll get a standing ovation at Nats...

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcg View Post
    I´ll be the third to agree. Seeing how they handled Carmen I have complete faith they can take any warhorse and give us something fresh and exciting. And if you have a quality that no one else possesses among your competitors, something that sets you apart from everyone else, something that coaches, officials and your peers comment on as an admirable quality you would be a fool to not use it. It would be like asking D&W (for instance) to not skate so fast (and some people want them to slow down and finish their moves more but they don't, because they know speed is their ace in the hole). More times than not when men and women dance together there is some level of sexuality to it. Even in Pink Floyd there were moves in that program that I found sexual (if you ever watched the movie The Wall when the animated flowers come on and think of that lift where she leaps into his arms it's exactly what I thought of at the time, one of the reasons it blew me away).
    Interesting tidbit about Pink Floyd... I've never seen the Wall. I'll look for a vid. It's embarrassing how many movies I have watched just because V&M skated to the music.

    I do understand what you're saying, agree that they have good judgment, know they will probably do something romantic and that I'll like it. Just to make it clear, I'm not in any way suggesting that doing a romantic FD would show weakness or lack of creativity or that I would be disappointed. I just would like to see something else as well (unfortunately they'd have to skate to 100 to do everything I would like to see them do, hah). I will say though, that I don't think pursuing a different avenue would be foolish. The point is not to handicap V&M.

    Sometimes you can take your perceived weakness, face it, and make it your strength. This is one of the most difficult things to do in figure skating and it's very rare IMO. They did it with Carmen. When Funny Face came out there were debates about whether it was first love, too vanilla, etc. Some people posted they would like to see them do something voidier (me), others posted they liked V&M as is and that since they're good at light romance they should continue to do it. They chose to do voidy this year and I'm glad. They have convinced people I thought would never post anything positive about them. And maybe D&W should have slowed down and worked on positions; maybe had they done that for a year or two, they would have improved their posture such that they could pick up their speed at the same level but with better line.

  17. #377
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    Puglover can I entrust my banner for you to take to Canadians and then you can return it to me for worlds. Its an FSU collective effort. Pani provided the photo, Jess the caption and I had it done.

    Please, please!

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    Actually interesting that Sap mentioned disneyesque. I have always thought that Meryl was like a disney character kind of larger than life pretty perfect and self contained but without real human emotion and also with very little connection to Charlie. So it was so funny that a young girl asked if she was Snow white when looking at the Giselle program. And when I gave it a second look she really did have that disney look......

    I somehow cannot see the disney in T&S at all. Certainly not starting with Valse Trieste. Hallelujah was a masterpiece in sensuality and even I want to hold your hand had its stroking moments. Carmen was a natural mature fruition in their career.

    That being said I dont think they will do Disney next year and young love is not disney at all. Scott doesnt have the locks for disney IMO.

  19. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by martyross View Post
    ahem, sorry to interrupt the discussion ^^; just wanted to post this
    look at these close-ups of the moment the Toreador music begins:
    http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6...923h23m57r.png
    http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/1...1923h24m36.png
    it really looks like Scott is screaming of anger and madness, but Tessa is certainly not intimidated!
    this moment actually frightens me for the sudden violence of their movements after the soft, dreaming moments of "La fleur". it is really a burst of violent emotion right on the explosion of the music.
    the strongest they make it, the better. the same should be when an orchestra plays it, certain parts of Carmen should be executed so loud to the point
    of almost scaring people out.
    their faces in those screen-shots, as well as the following moves, reminds me of expressionist paintings, where the shape of the human face is altered because of some terrible inner distress.
    imo there should be a non-stop closing-up on their faces during this dance!
    You are so right. The anger in the second picture is real .

    Amazing pictures... amazing program... amazing Tessa and Scott!

  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    Sometimes you can take your perceived weakness, face it, and make it your strength. This is one of the most difficult things to do in figure skating and it's very rare IMO. They did it with Carmen. When Funny Face came out there were debates about whether it was first love, too vanilla, etc. Some people posted they would like to see them do something voidier (me), others posted they liked V&M as is and that since they're good at light romance they should continue to do it. They chose to do voidy this year and I'm glad. They have convinced people I thought would never post anything positive about them. And maybe D&W should have slowed down and worked on positions; maybe had they done that for a year or two, they would have improved their posture such that they could pick up their speed at the same level but with better line.
    ITA

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