Virtue and Moir #22 - To Russia with love

[aka_gerbil]

At the risk of sounding like a ~hater~ I never knew D&W were supposed to be such great spinners. I've never even really noticed them either way. I'll try to watch for them next time.

IMO, if we're analyzing it element by element, then we're already missing the point about what ice dancing is supposed to be.

I think it's fine to analyze each element, so long as in the end, you don't miss out that it's the whole package that counts.

To give credit where credit is due, D/W are fabulous spinners. As much as I love V/M and as much as I think they really are clearly the far, far better team overall, D/W own that element and they own it even when you start to look at the spins that the pairs are doing as well. They don't lose speed and they tend to stay perfectly centered. When so many teams--dance and pairs--can't manage those things, it's really quite impressive.

As far as V/M's dance spins, they have all of the difficulty they need for level 4, but, at times, they tend to travel (badly at CoR) and lose speed.

As for last week, I think V/M were only in Ottawa that one day, and not all of the coaches from Canton were at NHK. There would have been someone "home" for them to work with. Plus, too, I'd imagine it would have been a good chance to work with Swan again.

[flowerpower]

I am worry they will not do this for Sochi This new system no good for V-M. Spin is bad element. Scottx had trouble with lift too and this dancers had to show lot off lifts which is not good for him. V-M will be better when liftes and spin removed. This is pair skater moves. They can show even greate emotion if they make new rules.

I couldn't care less what you think of my post. Save it for pani, since you have been so very clever as to sequence your pseud as the reverse of her username.

[Twilight1]

1992 was my favourite ice dancing Olympics...then Vancouver in a very close second.

Olympic Rankings since 1992...
1. 1992 (simply because I loved everything from K&P, U&Z and G&P)
2. 2010 (V&M & D&W)
3. 1998 (G&P, K&O, A&P and B&K- but I also liked P&S, D&V and F-P&M)
4. 2002 (A&P, all the OD's)
5. 2006 (N&K, B&A & D&V)
6. 1994 (G&P, the OD's, B&K and N&G)

I hope V&M are working with Swan on their FD. Between SC and RC you could see the SD got better so now they can really fine tune the FD. I also hope they fix whatever is off with the Compulsory dance portion on their SD. I would love to see them level 4 everything.

[lulu]

Just wanted to pop in again to say that I'm really enjoying the discussion on 6.0 vs. COP.

[skatingfan12]

Putting home crowds aside, nine out of 10 times the audience in the arena and audiences at home who aren't familiar with skating at all, are going to root for Meryl & Charlie over Tessa and Scott, and I think that's the biggest difference in their skating.

People recognize Tessa and Scott's skating skills and artistry. However, people who just watch skating during the Olympics, who honestly don't understand the ice dancing judging system and can't tell the difference between an okay team, a good team, a great one, look for the "entertainment" and "fun" factor, which Meryl and Charlie's skating is suited for. If you watch dancing shows like Dancing With The Stars or So You Think You Can Dance where the public votes, dancers who aren't so entertaining are often eliminated before others who are better entertainers.

I remember watching Olympics with my dad, who only watches figure skating during the Olympics, and one-by-one as each team skated, including Domnina/Shabalin and Belbin/Agosto, he would say, "They're no good!" in a sarcastic way, then when D/W came on, he's like, "They're good!!" When T/S came on, he said, "They're good. They really skate together, but I don't think they're good enough to beat the Americans though." To him and others, POTO was fun, entertaining, rousing, and easy for the crowd to get into, along with the difficult elements, while Mahler was a bit more quiet and subdued. I think he was dumbfounded, along with many other people, when the scores came up and Tessa and Scott won, especially by the big margin that they did so. I think it was the same at last year's WCh in Nice as the fans thoroughly enjoyed both DF ad FF, it seemed like DF got the bigger reaction from the crowd.

With D/W and T/S being so close in terms of scoring in technical elements, I think what it really comes down to is D/W's style is much more preferable to spectators. Whether or not that helps with judging, probably not, but if D/W and Tessa and Scott both do their best in Sochi '14 and Tessa and Scott win, I can easily see a "scoring controversy" brewing because people at home prefer Meryl and Charlie's program a lot more than Tessa and Scott's.

Although I won't say Tessa & Scott is more like a high-end luxury store and Meryl & Charlie are more like a budgetary supermarket, because that's a little demeaning towards their abilities and the years of hard work they've put in, IMHO.

[sequins]

I get what you are saying skatingfan and unfortunately there are a ton of people who go to skating events or watch it every now and then and really don't have a clue what to look for. They go by entertainment value alone, which is important but it can't win you an OGM, something I find very difficult to get through people's heads(my dad as well). Or in pairs/singles they think one mistake and you should lose because the other guy didn't fall, not realizing the skater that didn't fall never did a quad or triple axel and had a variety of other flaws the average 'fan' just doesn't see(bringing back memories of SC 1996 and my 'conversation with a fan'). What really bothers me about this is the example of last season when FF won gold at Worlds and the 'experts' start writing articles and insinuating that the 'fix' is in again in figure skating and that because the crowd preferrred D/W that meant they should win but they don't back it up with any facts or examples why. They just write a careless, uneducated article(because I'm not really sure that many 'experts' are anything of the sort) that encourages peoples 'lack of education' regarding the way programs are marked to continue. Yes the crowd cheers louder for some, and at 2011 worlds V/M got more cheers but that doesn't me you win and trying to explain that to the average viewer is a battle I find I can not win.

[IoanaC]

With D/W and T/S being so close in terms of scoring in technical elements, I think what it really comes down to is D/W's style is much more preferable to spectators. Whether or not that helps with judging, probably not, but if D/W and Tessa and Scott both do their best in Sochi '14 and Tessa and Scott win, I can easily see a "scoring controversy" brewing because people at home prefer Meryl and Charlie's program a lot more than Tessa and Scott's.

The pre-Olympic season has only just begun, we have absolutely no idea what the two teams will skate to next year, yet you can already "see a scoring controversy" in 14 months' time? That's interesting.

Audiences will most of the time go for the entertainment factor, yes. That's why so many people in Moscow thought Tessa and Scott should have won Worlds in 2011. But the judges are there to look beyond the excitement and compare the teams' technical elements. If audience reaction were the only criterion, the Duchesnays would have won several times in their career over Klimova & Ponomarenko! Thank God that wasn't the case. Not that I'm actually comparing D/W to the Duchesnays, because D/W are good technical skaters, as opposed to the French.

Also, I'd like to point out that Tessa and Scott's performances in Vancouver have won over a great number of (non-Canadian) new fans, some of them who had never watched figure skating for more than a few minutes in their whole life. So you see, it all depends on what touches you personally, as a spectator. People's tastes are as different as night and day.

[aka_gerbil]

It's a little presumptuous to believe that 90% of an audience who didn't know anything about skating would end up like D/W over V/M. My guess is it would be far lower than that. I've watched skating with several family members who know nothing about it, and most of them seem to prefer V/M... I'm definitely not convinced that D/W are somehow automatically preferable by most spectators. My experiences have certainly shown that not to be true. My guess is that it would likely be closer to 50/50...

Even at that, this is an Olympic sport. There's a reason why trained judges are used to score programs and award medals and placements rather than public voting like it was American Idol, DWTS, etc. Even if someone who doesn't know a bloody thing about skating prefers one team, the judges DO know about skating and that's what matters in the end.

If V/M (hopefully, hopefully, hopefully) win *turn, spit, curse*, and there is a judging controversy, IMO, it'll be because of US media bias and a failure to even try to explain to the viewers the reasons why they won based on their skating.

[Cherub721]

POTO is more rousing than Mahler. Hip Hip Chin Chin is easier to clap to than Il Postino. Die Fledermaus is peppier than Funny Face. It's that simple.

I would expect V&M to get the audience nod this year not because they're better, but because Carmen has a better beat than Notre Dame.

[Emdee]

It's a little presumptuous to believe that 90% of an audience who didn't know anything about skating would end up like D/W over V/M. My guess is it would be far lower than that. I've watched skating with several family members who know nothing about it, and most of them seem to prefer V/M... I'm definitely not convinced that D/W are somehow automatically preferable by most spectators. My experiences have certainly shown that not to be true. My guess is that it would likely be closer to 50/50...

D&W skating has often been frantic and that is noticeable. Also Mahler had that draw you in factor while you were left on the outside in the case of POTO.

[martyross]

sometimes it may be also the chemistry between the dancers that can draw in the casual viewer, when you sense the warmth and the harmony between two people displayed on the ice. especially with a gourgeous looking couple, plus beautiful costumes etc. these may be among the reasons why casual audience may prefer our Tessa an Scott. this year the sexual chemistry will hit such level that it will be difficult not to buy (((((:

[pani]

Dont know... I feel like with the way T-S skated "Mahler" at OG i am not wonder they got standing ovation I remeber even TAT gave them standing ovations in Vancouver.
When "Mahler" wasnt skated so great (like at GPF for example) i could understand people said its boring.
But in this season exibition did Tessa-Scott did something speciall? But i think a lot off people felt like they watch something too personal and sexual. That Tessa and Scott and all about them

[Sahararainfall]

Putting home crowds aside, nine out of 10 times the audience in the arena and audiences at home who aren't familiar with skating at all, are going to root for Meryl & Charlie over Tessa and Scott, and I think that's the biggest difference in their skating.

...

Wow! According to your theory, I am the one out of 10 people without knowledge of figure skating who preferred Tessa and Scott over Meryl and Charlie and I am not even Canadian! Should I feel special?

Just for the record, I am from a middle class background from a third world country (which means I am poor by US and European standard ) and don't have an elite bone in my body. So if your theory (as I understand it) is that Meryl and Charlie has more mass/public appeal than Tessa and Scott, I just can't agree because, well, I am a living example that that is not true. Maybe if the 9/10 people are from USA, but the rest of the world? I just can't agree.

Also just for the record, I am very uncomfortable with the "high-end luxury store" and "budgetary supermarket" analogy as well. I mean what's wrong with budgetary stores?

[Emdee]

Also just for the record, I am very uncomfortable with the "high-end luxury store" and "budgetary supermarket" analogy as well. I mean what's wrong with budgetary stores?

The analogy works fine for me and I am ex third world too. Once you take away what people see as elitist/offensive their (T&S) movement is high end in the artistic sense while in the case of D&W more is actually less.

However, keep in mind when it comes to consumption of luxury goods the third world is very much the first world.

[puglover]

I prefer programs that people either love or hate then ones they are just "meh". I do like D & W and I find their skating very exciting but there is a sameness to it for me. I felt the 2011 year they did pick something very different and although they did win their first World Gold Medal - I can't remember one step about it and it felt out of their comfort zone without the big dramatic storyline. Some people may feel "Carmen" is too personal and sexual - many will think it is dynamite. Can't please everyone. I think most masterpieces are like that.

[browning]

Putting home crowds aside, nine out of 10 times the audience in the arena and audiences at home who aren't familiar with skating at all, are going to root for Meryl & Charlie over Tessa and Scott, and I think that's the biggest difference in their skating.

People recognize Tessa and Scott's skating skills and artistry. However, people who just watch skating during the Olympics, who honestly don't understand the ice dancing judging system and can't tell the difference between an okay team, a good team, a great one, look for the "entertainment" and "fun" factor, which Meryl and Charlie's skating is suited for. If you watch dancing shows like Dancing With The Stars or So You Think You Can Dance where the public votes, dancers who aren't so entertaining are often eliminated before others who are better entertainers.

I remember watching Olympics with my dad, who only watches figure skating during the Olympics, and one-by-one as each team skated, including Domnina/Shabalin and Belbin/Agosto, he would say, "They're no good!" in a sarcastic way, then when D/W came on, he's like, "They're good!!" When T/S came on, he said, "They're good. They really skate together, but I don't think they're good enough to beat the Americans though." To him and others, POTO was fun, entertaining, rousing, and easy for the crowd to get into, along with the difficult elements, while Mahler was a bit more quiet and subdued. I think he was dumbfounded, along with many other people, when the scores came up and Tessa and Scott won, especially by the big margin that they did so. I think it was the same at last year's WCh in Nice as the fans thoroughly enjoyed both DF ad FF, it seemed like DF got the bigger reaction from the crowd.

With D/W and T/S being so close in terms of scoring in technical elements, I think what it really comes down to is D/W's style is much more preferable to spectators. Whether or not that helps with judging, probably not, but if D/W and Tessa and Scott both do their best in Sochi '14 and Tessa and Scott win, I can easily see a "scoring controversy" brewing because people at home prefer Meryl and Charlie's program a lot more than Tessa and Scott's.

Although I won't say Tessa & Scott is more like a high-end luxury store and Meryl & Charlie are more like a budgetary supermarket, because that's a little demeaning towards their abilities and the years of hard work they've put in, IMHO.

I am a V/M fan but i like D/W but i have to disagree with you conclusion that 9/10 causal fans would pick d/w. During the Olympics i was travelling and nearly missed the FD live but did catch both dances and so did my travel buddies, 3 other friends whom did not even know who v/w or d/w were. After seeing v/w skate my friends exact words in reference to v/m skate just as the program ended were "they were so good they have to win." Yes my friends are Canadian but my friend who had said that did even realize that v/m are Canadian at first. and my other friend when she realize v/m were Canadian said something along the line of "we are going to get a Gold medal" because that was the best she had seen in the competition. They had no bias, as never watched figure skating and only watched it because I had wanted to and it was the Olympics. Yes D/W can be more dynamic at times but not everyone responses to that, we all find different things entertaining and to assume that 9/10 people are going to pick D/W
is an assumption that I think you would find hard to prove correct.

[Alixana]

POTO is more rousing than Mahler. Hip Hip Chin Chin is easier to clap to than Il Postino. Die Fledermaus is peppier than Funny Face. It's that simple.

I would expect V&M to get the audience nod this year not because they're better, but because Carmen has a better beat than Notre Dame.

Clapping .. the next Olympic sport!
I do love this thread

[ofdarkness]

Being fun, upbeat and catchy is not necessarily the only criteria that draws an audience in. I don't agree with the assumption that just because one can clap along or that it's "fun", the audience will like it better. It's up to an individual and not an audience whether they were entertained by something. Everyone has different tastes. For example, someone could argue that pop music is fun and entertaining, which is true, but I for one do not like it. Everyone prefers a certain style, and it would be unfair to clump a "majority" together.

You also can't deny that Mahler drew an audience in, perhaps in a different way, but even their own coach was enraptured. Rather than physically rousing (as in, it's catchy, they feel like they want to move), I think VM's programs tend to rouse emotions. And I think Carmen is both

[Golightly]

Rather than physically rousing (as in, it's catchy, they feel like they want to move), I think VM's programs tend to rouse emotions. And I think Carmen is both

Exactly.

My favorite part is the entry into the twizzles. In fact, both the entry and the exit. It's basically them showing off their musicality, it gives me goose bumps. But with Carmen, you feel, more than ever, that each movement conveys something deeper. They're still drawing you in even when you can "clap along". In fact, you don't feel like clapping, you just want to stare at how magnificent the whole program is.

Sent from my Inspire 4G using Tapatalk 2

[iNap]

Now its interresting to know - where did T-S spend all this time after CoR? They were in Ottawa last week, coaches was in Japan.
So they will have one week before GPF?

And could someone help to find V-M Gala pratice from SC and grup number from SC, focusing on T-S, where they dance slow dance together.

Dont know... I feel like with the way T-S skated "Mahler" at OG i am not wonder they got standing ovation I remeber even TAT gave them standing ovations in Vancouver.
When "Mahler" wasnt skated so great (like at GPF for example) i could understand people said its boring.
But in this season exibition did Tessa-Scott did something speciall? But i think a lot off people felt like they watch something too personal and sexual. That Tessa and Scott and all about them

They spend time with Monica Lewinsky. She now move to London