Virtue and Moir #22 - To Russia with love

[sequins]

Whenever people praise pre-COP dance as being much better than COP dance, I really wonder what I'm missing. Because I thought pre COP dance had Fusar-Poli/Margaglio, Lobacheva/Averbukh, and Bourne/Kraatz as a string of world champions, and that a really bad thing to remember.

If I may add my 2 cents and just say both eras had/have great teams and not so great. I feel like with dance more than any other discipline under COP it's like apples and oranges when you compare the past and present. I think it's why I love V/M 'Carmen' this season it's like 'old school' meets COP and it works brilliantly. Dance in the past was nothing if not 'entertaining' and at some point I feel all those teams you mentioned did have some great programs and while I prefer COP simply because it makes it more of a sport and I feel ice dance would not survive today without it, I can appreciate the past and I do remember it fondly.... when it doesn't make me wanna pull my hair out.

[martyross]

in Pre-COP era, sexual moves like T&S's in Carmen would have appeared strange or even "shocking"?

[Emdee]

I find that pre COP there were dancers who had that incredible connection. Now I find only V&M are at that level.

Many others skate like two persons on the ice together. Technically good but otherwise wanting. I see that various others now are trying to build that connection.

Like others have said the beauty of Carmen is that they have pushed the sport techinically and artistically.

[lulu]

Sorry for the long post... I never miss the opportunity to go on a tangent about old school ice dance...

Hey, I love discussing old school ice dance & pairs!.

But, back onto the topic of V&M, this might have been discussed to death already (sorry, I haven't read the last few pages of the thread), but I'm not really understanding what people are finding "shocking" or "controversial" about Tessa & Scott's lifts in Carmen. Personally I really like the lift sequence.

[pani]

Volosozhar-Trankov blog. Something about T-S
http://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/v...ov/389403.html

Tessa and Scott, like most titled skaters at this event had speach. They said a lot off good words about Russia, competition organization, Scott said "there are always greate banquets in Russia" And than Tessa said on pure russian "Thank you! Good night" All were delighted
Tanya said Tessa is very quiet, organized girl, when Scott love parties

[Fort]

Hey, I love discussing old school ice dance & pairs!.

But, back onto the topic of V&M, this might have been discussed to death already (sorry, I haven't read the last few pages of the thread), but I'm not really understanding what people are finding "shocking" or "controversial" about Tessa & Scott's lifts in Carmen. Personally I really like the lift sequence.

I don't think V&M are doing anything that is actually all that shocking or controversial, but I think that because it's them and they have a reputation of being a more romantic-themed team that some of their moves seem more titilating. I think it's also a matter of... intent. Scott's hand has been on Tessa's thigh a million times, but as a method of maneouvering her during a lift, a spin, etc. By sliding his hand down her body, gripping her thigh, and of course Tessa's cat-that-ate-a-canary expression and reaction, suddenly Scott's hand on Tessa's thigh is sexy. And so the program continues. I like the last lift sequence too -- it's difficult, daring, lightning fast, but yeah, I think it deliberately chooses to have a position that, given the tone of the rest of the program, is going to make plenty of people think sex and power. I say deliberately because looking at the history of V&M's programs, their lifts have elegant poses, even ones that are again built for speed or even ones that could be seen as sensual or sexy. Now, there have been plenty of teams that have also done sexy lifts, elegant or otherwise, but I think it again circles back around to V&M, the 'lovey-dovey' team, unashamedly doing a program that is about sex, obsession, power, seem even more amplified.

[sap5]

I don't think V&M are doing anything that is actually all that shocking or controversial, but I think that because it's them and they have a reputation of being a more romantic-themed team that some of their moves seem more titilating. I think it's also a matter of... intent. Scott's hand has been on Tessa's thigh a million times, but as a method of maneouvering her during a lift, a spin, etc. By sliding his hand down her body, gripping her thigh, and of course Tessa's cat-that-ate-a-canary expression and reaction, suddenly Scott's hand on Tessa's thigh is sexy. And so the program continues. I like the last lift sequence too -- it's difficult, daring, lightning fast, but yeah, I think it deliberately chooses to have a position that, given the tone of the rest of the program, is going to make plenty of people think sex and power. I say deliberately because looking at the history of V&M's programs, their lifts have elegant poses, even ones that are again built for speed or even ones that could be seen as sensual or sexy. Now, there have been plenty of teams that have also done sexy lifts, elegant or otherwise, but I think it again circles back around to V&M, the 'lovey-dovey' team, unashamedly doing a program that is about sex, obsession, power, seem even more amplified.

i don't think it's even that. I think it's that we've gotten used to seeing Disney-esque programs because most teams have either been very young or have been siblings. Now that two skaters are out there acting like adults, it's thrown people into shock. I don't see anything controversial or shocking in V/M's Carmen. For me, past programs (like U&Z's "Blues for Klook") had a more sexual vibe.

[Fort]

i don't think it's even that. I think it's that we've gotten used to seeing Disney-esque programs because most teams have either been very young or have been siblings. Now that two skaters are out there acting like adults, it's thrown people into shock. I don't see anything controversial or shocking in V/M's Carmen. For me, past programs (like U&Z's "Blues for Klook") had a more sexual vibe.

That's true; the age of ice dancers has skewed much younger with COP. The old wait-your-turn combined with the ability of dancers to remain competitive for a longer period of time, meant that by the time we were witnessing the medalling programs, the dancers were much more mature and able to portray programs that reflected that.

[Cherub721]

I don't find the lifts shocking either. It seems like every time a woman does a split or a man's hand is anywhere near a woman's groin, people are "shocked" I mean it's a sport; how can people watch pairs and see a woman flying through the air in a short dress and be shocked, just shocked to see her underwear? I guess these people can't watch gymnastics at all because, gasp, they don't even wear skirts and they still do splits! Oh the horror!

It is always the same story.... C&S' lift in the clown FD was a very upsetting one. The comments on here were very bad and Galit heard about them; someone here even made a fan book to console them. Then there was one of the lifts in B&K's Adagio which went viral (his hand looked to be lodged "up there" - there were photoshops of it all over the net), the C&L lift from their Que Sera Sera OD, and basically anything Grushina and Kohklova did. IMO it's very clear none of these were meant in a provocative way. The positions were done to add difficulty.

I agree with Fort that the difference here is intent. V&M have been clear what their theme, so any lift position that is suggestive I'm assuming is done with purpose... because EVERYTHING in the dance is done with purpose. That's why it's awesome. It's shocking to see them being so brazen about it. It's nice to see after hearing for years that "North Americans are bringing the class back to ice dance, blah blah blah." It's just so risky, especially for them.

[Emdee]

I don't find the lifts shocking either. It seems like every time a woman does a split or a man's hand is anywhere near a woman's groin, people are "shocked" I mean it's a sport; how can people watch pairs and see a woman flying through the air in a short dress and be shocked, just shocked to see her underwear? I guess these people can't watch gymnastics at all because, gasp, they don't even wear skirts and they still do splits! Oh the horror!

It is always the same story.... C&S' lift in the clown FD was a very upsetting one. The comments on here were very bad and Galit heard about them; someone here even made a fan book to console them. Then there was one of the lifts in B&K's Adagio which went viral (his hand looked to be lodged "up there" - there were photoshops of it all over the net), the C&L lift from their Que Sera Sera OD, and basically anything Grushina and Kohklova did. IMO it's very clear none of these were meant in a provocative way. The positions were done to add difficulty.

I agree with Fort that the difference here is intent. V&M have been clear what their theme, so any lift position that is suggestive I'm assuming is done with purpose... because EVERYTHING in the dance is done with purpose. That's why it's awesome. It's shocking to see them being so brazen about it. It's nice to see after hearing for years that "North Americans are bringing the class back to ice dance, blah blah blah." It's just so risky, especially for them.

Kokhlova is the exception - she explicitly got her positions from the kamasutra in her Vancouver program. The program was meant to be provocative and suggestive IMO.

[aka_gerbil]

i don't think it's even that. I think it's that we've gotten used to seeing Disney-esque programs because most teams have either been very young or have been siblings. Now that two skaters are out there acting like adults, it's thrown people into shock. I don't see anything controversial or shocking in V/M's Carmen. For me, past programs (like U&Z's "Blues for Klook") had a more sexual vibe.

This. Like Fort said, in the past, the top ice dance teams were older and that maturity was reflected in their programs. In recent years though, the younger teams possibly coupled with a younger set of fans have led to a lot of Disney-esqe programs (and the expectation that Disney-esqe is the standard).

I also think compounding the problem with the Canton teams is a tendency by some factions of the various fanbases to try to label/view the skaters themselves as Disney characters. I think it is indeed jarring for some of these people to see V/M doing a mature program that deals with some very adult themes

[lulu]

Thanks Fort and Cherub for the excellent explanations. In addition to the difficulty and great technique, the reason I am enjoying their Carmen so much is because of it's boldness and evocative aspects of the choreography.

]It is always the same story.... C&S' lift in the clown FD was a very upsetting one. The comments on here were very bad and Galit heard about them; someone here even made a fan book to console them.

I vaguely remember that. Poor Galit. Well, if she's reading this now, C&S are one of my favorite ice dance teams, I enjoy watching their routines on youtube and I think they improved so much over the course of their career.

[sap5]

It's just so risky, especially for them.

What's so risky about this? The real risk would have been to do another "first-love" program because then you'd figure they couldn't do anything else.

[Cherub721]

Emdee: I didn't know that about K&N. That's really cool actually.

What's so risky about this? The real risk would have been to do another "first-love" program because then you'd figure they couldn't do anything else.

Because of the Disney-fication of ice dance that you touched upon. V&M have a certain aesthetic that has cultivated a certain fan base. Everything they have done has been demure. When they won in Vancouver, a lot of people were saying how they have brought ice dancing back to the days of T&D (unfairly discounting two decades of history and many great teams, IMO), how ice dancing used to be trashy and vulgar and how they brought the dancing back and made it classy again. I would have expected these fans would have a very hard time with something as in your face as Carmen (glad it has not been so). Also, honestly, the North American couples in general have more of a squeaky clean vibe, so it would be a risk for any of them to do this. D&L had a little edge to them for a while, but they didn't get on the podium until they start doing wedding programs in virginal white dresses. L&T had the blues and Scorpions FDs (although they weren't really raunchy) and they never made it big internationally. B&A, D&W, and the Shibs are all straightlaced.

I do see what you mean about the risk of doing another lovey dovey program. I guess they saw it as well and perceived it as a risk to their legacy. In the fan meeting they discussed using "And the Waltz Goes On" as an FD. They probably would've been slammed for that because it would have been too similar to Valse Triste. And rightfully so, because you do expect the leaders to show some versatility. But they could have done a million different programs that were voidy and dramatic without the overt sexuality... stuff like Memorial Requiem that wouldn't carry the risk of actually offending the pearl clutchers.

[IoanaC]

I do see what you mean about the risk of doing another lovey dovey program. I guess they saw it as well and perceived it as a risk to their legacy. In the fan meeting they discussed using "And the Waltz Goes On" as an FD. They probably would've been slammed for that because it would have been too similar to Valse Triste. And rightfully so, because you do expect the leaders to show some versatility. But they could have done a million different programs that were voidy and dramatic without the overt sexuality... stuff like Memorial Requiem that wouldn't carry the risk of actually offending the pearl clutchers.

I agree. Although I think they really have shown more than once that they can do more than "lovey-dovey": Pink Floyd, Latin FD, Assassination Tango, Farrucas, and, yes, Funny Face - which I see as more of a Broadway-ish character piece than a romance on ice. But you're right that they have been perceived as straight-laced. Even the sensuality in the Latin FD looked like "first love" to those who only wanted to see that.

[sequins]

in Pre-COP era, sexual moves like T&S's in Carmen would have appeared strange or even "shocking"?

Really? I don't know. Pre-COP had it's own variety of strange and 'shocking' much more than anything today including V/M
Carmen but JMO.

[sap5]

Because of the Disney-fication of ice dance that you touched upon. V&M have a certain aesthetic that has cultivated a certain fan base. Everything they have done has been demure. When they won in Vancouver, a lot of people were saying how they have brought ice dancing back to the days of T&D (unfairly discounting two decades of history and many great teams, IMO), how ice dancing used to be trashy and vulgar and how they brought the dancing back and made it classy again. I would have expected these fans would have a very hard time with something as in your face as Carmen (glad it has not been so).

The (few) people who became fans of V/M because of their "modest" programs *are* having difficulty with Carmen. However, I believe the majority of V/M fans are fans of their skating, not fans of their modest aesthetic. These fans have been waiting for V/M to do something, anything, really, that capitalizes on their skating and dancing skills. This Carmen is one way of doing that, but truly, if they had picked a program that wasn't "overtly sexual" but showed their skills in a different way, I think people would have been just as pleased.

I know Marina believes that the "connection" V/M have is what sets them apart, but I'd love to see a non-love program one day. Maybe something akin to the Kerrs' "Muse" program (which I know is also about love, but not the typical romantic stuff Zoueva loves to give to V/M). There are many different ways to express a "connection" between two people.

[IoanaC]

These fans have been waiting for V/M to do something, anything, really, that capitalizes on their skating and dancing skills. This Carmen is one way of doing that, but truly, if they had picked a program that wasn't "overtly sexual" but showed their skills in a different way, I think people would have been just as pleased.

Every program of theirs capitalized on their skating and dancing skills. Yes, Carmen is the best and most mature so far, but it's not like, until now, they had just stepped on the ice, acted in love and won titles.

[sap5]

Every program of theirs capitalized on their skating and dancing skills. Yes, Carmen is the best and most mature so far, but it's not like, until now, they had just stepped on the ice, acted in love and won titles.

What I mean is that I felt they had much more to give than what their programs in the past have shown.

[pani]

I know Marina believes that the "connection" V/M have is what sets them apart, but I'd love to see a non-love program one day. Maybe something akin to the Kerrs' "Muse" program (which I know is also about love, but not the typical romantic stuff Zoueva loves to give to V/M). There are many different ways to express a "connection" between two people.

V-M are not a siblings so why not to show reall sex on ice? Plus nobody could do this better. And they did this much better, then other off-ice couples in ice dance So why they need to play to people without sex, like Kerrs need to do because they are brother and sister team?
Yes, V-M have a lot of risk this season. First of all because this FD is most difficult under COP. Any simple step, any simple element. Plus with technikal difficulties they show unusuall modern body movements, which nobody could show in today ice dance. This is V-M territory and they need to play in there own field. Plus they show connection in every point of this FD from start to the end. This is very difficult to do, but they did this. So yes, they have the risk. I am sure they knew a lot of people will be angry, when they will see this sexual moves (especially in USA and we understand why), but they need to show there own "Carmen" and they are on fire in this FD. And for me it was wonder how they feel strong music and drama. This FD show ther versiality.

I could talk a lot about this FD, yes But the main thing where you favorite D-W went after SA - to the ballet dancer from SYTYCD. I am sure they didnt expect to see something so great, like "Carmen" is. I even feel bad for them, because this two never could be V-M and for me its hard to understand, why they try show what they coudnt and never will.
I think D-W never took the risk to went out from the box, to show something different. Why they need to try show to us unnatural connection? What it was at SA? I think team like D-W need to try to show something like Kerrs did - people without sex show different emotions, not love or relationships between man and woman, becaase its understanding, Charlie have a hard time to look at Meryl.
So i think teams like Shibs, D-W must took a lot from Kerrs, I agree with this.
And this is so funny V-M alwayse need to do something for you every time, when D-W didnt need to do this and even this yeat FD for you is amazing and Carmen - nothing speciall. Sorry, i understand you wish support D-W, but why in this thread?