Plushenko

[rayhaneh]

What are these discussion come from, am I in the wrong post? Apparently only people who are familiar with the rules can post here otherwise somebody will be very happy to give you a lesson or two.

Can I still allow to say anything good about Plushenko without pointing out all his "weakness" or listing all the names who are better than Plushenko in one or another aspect? I mean apparently I can still say that his jumps are good (although maybe in the future this would also go to some other skaters), and I can still say he is kind of ultimate competitor. But no more apparently.

I do not want to discuss how good Chan's SS or how good Lambiel's spins are, I do not recall any Plushenko's fans denies these facts. But can I still say that Plushenko's SS and spins are good (I do not use best here, just saying). Can I still say as a "whole package" Plushenko is good?

As for artistry part, what can I say, Plushenko's art touches me but not Lambiel's or Dai's. I still recognize Lambiel and Dai are very artistic skaters but not my cup of tea. Does this mean that I do no understand Figure Skating at all, or better, I do not understand art? You cannot compare artistry, different styles provoke different feelings on different people. Can you say that Pablo Picasso is better than Vincent van Gogh (or vise visa, I do not care)?

Sorry lala for my outburst here. And thanks for all the links or videos. I love the practice video of "snow", it is beautiful.

I also think pretty much everyone on this thread agrees that Plushenko is one of the greatest skaters of history - you know, just saying (Incidently, I also really like Plushenko but apparently, not enough to post here )

I wasn't aware this was an Uber thread (I thought it was mostly to discuss his birthday show and then a different discussion ensued) - if it is my apologizes: I don't usually go on Uber threads, unless it is to share specific information I come across, precisely because I do not want to step on any toes or hurt people's sensitivities I love a good debate though

[yaya124]

No it is not really an uber fan post. Yes it is about his 30th birthday show but in the end end of arguing that he is no better in this or that than this or that skater. I am actually OK when you say that his SS or spins are not the best, although as I do not feel that lala is trying to convince other people that Plushenko is the best in every aspects, I do feel pointing these well known facts out is kind of mood killer.

And I am not so happy about the talks regarding artistry here only because you stated your own opinions (of course there must be quite number of people agree with you on this) as a fact, which is not appropriate. The reason is simple, I have already pointed out in my post, you cannot compare Pablo Picasso and Vincent van Gogh. They have their different ways approaching artistry.

[misskarne]

Thanks for all the video links! Ilia and Alexei still look great after all these years!

(And, I have to say, ever since I saw the first incarnation of the "Four Kings" dance I have been dying to see it done with Kulik and Yagudin, to make it a REAL "Kings" routine.)

And look! Plushy and Yags HUGGED! Is the apocalypse truly coming?

I like how in the Four Kings segment Alexei looked like he forgot the steps, Ilia was watching Stephane and then started mimicking the throwing back of the head, and Stephane is totally rocking out.

[yaya124]

Thanks for all the video links! Ilia and Alexei still look great after all these years!

(And, I have to say, ever since I saw the first incarnation of the "Four Kings" dance I have been dying to see it done with Kulik and Yagudin, to make it a REAL "Kings" routine.)

And look! Plushy and Yags HUGGED! Is the apocalypse truly coming?

I like how in the Four Kings segment Alexei looked like he forgot the steps, Ilia was watching Stephane and then started mimicking the throwing back of the head, and Stephane is totally rocking out.

Yagudin indeed forgets his moves, he did not have enough time to practice (He almost missed his flight). And yes, Lambiel is the most rocked one here (and I seriously thought this is also true for the 4 kings number in general, I mean the ones they performed in the past). The most hilarious part about this particular one is that Plushy fell on his steps and then make fun of himself to the audience. They really have a lot of fun here.

[lala]

What are these discussion come from, am I in the wrong post? Apparently only people who are familiar with the rules can post here otherwise somebody will be very happy to give you a lesson or two.

Can I still allow to say anything good about Plushenko without pointing out all his "weakness" or listing all the names who are better than Plushenko in one or another aspect? I mean apparently I can still say that his jumps are good (although maybe in the future this would also go to some other skaters), and I can still say he is kind of ultimate competitor. But no more apparently.

I do not want to discuss how good Chan's SS or how good Lambiel's spins are, I do not recall any Plushenko's fans denies these facts. But can I still say that Plushenko's SS and spins are good (I do not use best here, just saying). Can I still say as a "whole package" Plushenko is good?

As for artistry part, what can I say, Plushenko's art touches me but not Lambiel's or Dai's. I still recognize Lambiel and Dai are very artistic skaters but not my cup of tea. Does this mean that I do no understand Figure Skating at all, or better, I do not understand art? You cannot compare artistry, different styles provoke different feelings on different people. Can you say that Pablo Picasso is better than Vincent van Gogh (or vise visa, I do not care)?

Sorry lala for my outburst here. And thanks for all the links or videos. I love the practice video of "snow", it is beautiful.

Thank you Yaya! You are absolute right! Plushenko's art touches me, too.. Most of time I can't take off my eyes of him. Plus he has inspiring personality.

What do you mean by "death on the ice"? You mean drama - as opposed to something more light-hearted? In that case, I totally agree




A-ha! Well, I had never seen either performance - it's very interesting that you managed to get them both skating in the same contexte (exhibition) on the same music

Actually, it's a perfect illustration of what I was trying to explain in my previous post. Both performances are entertaining - that was never in question (and again, I really admire Plushenko as an entertainer, so that only confirms that). And you can prefer one or the other - it's a matter of taste, so neither choice is right or wrong

But, in terms of choreographic structure, in terms of attention to details with respect to the nuances of the music, which is what I was talking about, in this particular instance, Lambiel's program is pretty vastly superior. Watching his program, you feel Plushenko has a rough frame but makes up things as he goes along. Maybe that's not true, but it lacks a sense of direction, of drive throughout his program: if you look at it closely, it is mostly a succession of technical elements, a couple of moments of musical interpretation (mostly in the upper corner after around 40 seconds after he started skating), and some arms movements, which are pretty generic in the steps sequence (and off the music in places). It doesn't change the fact that it's entertaining, and Plushenko can sell you a lot of things because he's got charisma by the bucketload, but there is no real choreography. On the other hand, with Lambiel, you can sense that everything is in place, and almost every nuance of the music is exploited, by a specific arm gesture, by a change of edge, etc, etc

And that's (an important) part of what makes Lambiel the superior artist. Do I think Plushenko would be able to skate a choreography as complex as that of Lambiel? Definitely. The result would be different because they have different personalities, and I am don't think the register of movements Lambiel has is something that would come naturally to Plushenko - he'd have to learn but if he wanted to, I am pretty sure he could. But the fact remains that when it comes to crafting a program, Plushenko, on the face of what he's shown, is not on par with Lambiel

But again, that does not mean that you should prefer Lambiel's program to Plushenko - THAT is completely a matter of taste

This program is exhibition number of Stef. He skated in last year many times. Plush skated once, and probably won't skate it anymore. I don't think that he worked with it alot.

[Cherub721]

What are these discussion come from, am I in the wrong post?

ITA with everything you said, yaya. I don't understand why every Plushenko thread inevitably ends in the same argument - is it ok to like him, to not like him, to think he's artistic, to not think he's artistic, to think he has good skating skills, to not think he has good skating skills, to think he has good choreography, to think he has terrible choreography. It is very tedious. As you say, it seems people can only agree that he has good jumps and is a strong competitor.

I'm not "blaming" either side (fans or non-fans), but being that these threads are posted here, they always end up in a debate. I wouldn't mind having a very clearly labelled Plushenko fan thread in the Trash Can where people could post news and info drama free. What do you guys think?

[lala]

ITA with everything you said, yaya. I don't understand why every Plushenko thread inevitably ends in the same argument - is it ok to like him, to not like him, to think he's artistic, to not think he's artistic, to think he has good skating skills, to not think he has good skating skills, to think he has good choreography, to think he has terrible choreography. It is very tedious. As you say, it seems people can only agree that he has good jumps and is a strong competitor.

I'm not "blaming" either side (fans or non-fans), but being that these threads are posted here, they always end up in a debate. I wouldn't mind having a very clearly labelled Plushenko fan thread in the Trash Can where people could post news and info drama free. What do you guys think?

I'm new in this forum. I was opened this thread to Plushyenko's birthday. He is 30, but he still competes, I think he deserves this topic. I put links, and I wasn't that person, who started this debate. But if anyone attacks Evgeni or writes untrue things I will defend him, I have the right. Or I haven't? You know that is interesting, I got some PM and they thank to me this thread, links, informations, etc. And they hope I will continue this topic. What can I do?

[Cherub721]

I'm new in this forum. I was opened this thread to Plushyenko's birthday. He is 30, but he still competes, I think he deserves this topic. I put links, and I wasn't that person, who started this debate. But if anyone attacks Evgeni or writes untrue things I will defend him, I have the right. Or I haven't? You know that is interesting, I got some PM and they thank to me this thread, links, informations, etc. And they hope I will continue this topic. What can I do?

I don't think you did anything wrong and I'm very thankful you started this thread because I would have never known about the show otherwise. This part of the forum is called Great Skate Debate, and it's natural for these posts to turn into discussions about technical stuff like skating skills. Others have the right to bring the issues up and you have the right to defend him; it just gets a little boring having to skim through all of it in order to find the new photos, videos, and news.

I don't know if you read the Trash Can part of the forum, but it has a lot of fan threads or "uber" threads for skaters like Virtue/Moir and Davis/White which have literally been going on for years. It's helpful because all the fans can post fun stuff like this in there and more or less enjoy it without having to justify why they like those skaters, and those who are not fans can happily ignore it. I am thinking Plush should have one.

I would start one, but I can't think of a clever name.

[lauravvv]

This program is exhibition number of Stef. He skated in last year many times. Plush skated once, and probably won't skate it anymore. I don't think that he is worked with it alot.

Yes, but Stephane also made this program especially for 'Opera on Ice' in a quite short time, and that was the first time when he skated it. The only difference is that he continued to skate it after that, but Evgeni didn't (or hasn't so far).

I don't want to say anything special with it, though, although I agree with rayhaneh in this particular case. But enough with that. Thank you for posting all the links to Evgeni's performances. I haven't had time to watch all of them, but probably I will later.

[lauravvv]

I think only Dais and Plushy got 4 level of his step sequence, no one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKEEuxPEP0U Plushy's steps in old system, montage, his steps were very difficoult, fast,interesting.

I think you either didn't read my post about step sequence levels carefully, or didn't understand it. I was not talking about who got level 4 at Japan Open, and who didn't, but about what those levels actually mean, and what they don't mean.

But here are Chan's scores for his FS at the Rostelecom Cup (Cup of Russia), if you want - http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf . He had level 4 step sequence there, and an overall mark of 5.60 for it. His mark for the choreographic sequence was 3.60. And his SS component mark was 9.46. That's what he gets when he skates well, but not at his absolute best. And why did he get practically the same score as Evgeni did at Europeans, although he doubled several jumps there? It was because of his higher components score. 92.70 as opposed to Evgeni's 88.84. Especially his Skating Skills, Transitions and Choreography marks were higher. Which means that if at the same competition Evgeni did all his jumps, but Patrick Chan made one or two mistakes (not like at Japan Open), Patrick could still win mostly because of higher PCS. I am not writing this to prove that Chan is better than Evgeni, just to show that Evgeni still has work to do. But we'll see how he will do at Europeans this season.

By the way, Daisuke's PCSs (as you mentioned him too), including his SS marks were much lower at Cup of China than at Japan Open, as his skates there were not so good - http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf. Also, he was a bit over-scored in PCS at Japan Open. Most likely Buttle's PCS should have been the highest. Daisuke's programs this season, especially his LP, are not of his best - the LP doesn't have that much real transitions or interesting choreography. Not that much better than Evgeni's, I'd say. I hope that both of them will have more interesting programs in the Olympic season.

Thank you for the link. Evgeni's steps really are interesting and entertaining here, but I have to say that they are quite similar in most of those performances. That's one of the problems that I have with Evgeni's skating sometimes - he has his own special style, and does some interesting things on ice, but he often repeats almost the same steps and/or moves without any special thought to the particular music that he is using in each performance. He mostly uses music as a background/support for his skating, peformance and his charisma, instead of building his choreography and performance according to the nuances of the music. It's not always so, but very often it is.

No, i just wanted to say, is not only the "death on the ice" can be art.

I agree. That is not my criteria for art on ice at all. But, for me, the greatest entertainer and comic artist (but not only) on ice is Kurt Browning, although Evgeni does well too.

[lala]

I think you either didn't read my post about step sequence levels carefully, or didn't understand it. I was not talking about who got level 4 at Japan Open, and who didn't, but about what those levels actually mean, and what they don't mean.

But here are Chan's scores for his FS at the Rostelecom Cup (Cup of Russia), if you want - http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf . He had level 4 step sequence there, and an overall mark of 5.60 for it. His mark for the choreographic sequence was 3.60. And his SS component mark was 9.46. That's what he gets when he skates well, but not at his absolute best. And why did he get practically the same score as Evgeni did at Europeans, although he doubled several jumps there? It was because of his higher components score. 92.70 as opposed to Evgeni's 88.84. Especially his Skating Skills, Transitions and Choreography marks were higher. I am not writing this to prove that Patrick Chan is better than Evgeni, just to show that Evgeni still has work to do. But we'll see how he will do at Europeans this season.

Thank you for the link. Evgeni's steps really are interesting and entertaining here, but I have to say that they are quite similar in most of those performances. That's one of the problems that I have with Evgeni's skating sometimes - he has his own special style, and does some interesting things on ice, but he often repeats almost the same steps and/or moves without any special thought to the particular music that he is using in each performance. He mostly uses music as a background/support for his skating, peformance and his charisma, instead of building his choreography and performance according to the nuances of the music. It's not always so, but very often it is.


I agree. That is not my criteria for art on ice at all. But, for me, the greatest entertainer and comic artist (but not only) on ice is Kurt Browning, although Evgeni does well too.

My personal opinion, Chan was great in COR-this was the first time, when I liked him-, but I think, his SS components were too high. Of course, he is the best in this skills, but he is a member of new generation, he grew up under the new system. And I have a suspicion, the new system has been transformed for Patrick in last years.

About Browning, I like him, but he is "too much" for me, yes he is a comic artist, but his humor is too American for my European taste. I hope you understand me...I can't tell you better..

[Really]

And I have a suspicion, the new system has been transformed for Patrick in last years.

Ah, the power of skating while Canadian...

[lala]

Four Kings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Serq2v9AqVw

Plushy despite a slight fever on the show. It seems, it's a tradition, ha had fever on Mishin's annyversary show in last year, too.

[lauravvv]

My personal opinion, Chan was great in COR-this was the first time, when I liked him-, but I think, his SS components were too high. Of course, he is the best in this skills, but he is a member of new generation, he grew up under the new system. And I have a suspicion, the new system has been transformed for Patrick in last years.

I agree about growing up under the new system. As I already mentioned, it's not Evgeni's fault that he didn't grow up under this same system, and was taught differently. It's very likely that he would also skate differently if he had grown up under this system. But I don't think that Chan's SS components were too high. Or, if they were, then other skater's components at some competitions have also been too high - like Daisuke's components at Japan Open. This has been a tendency lately to give extremely high PCSs to the best skaters, whereas before judges were reluctant to award skaters with really high components marks. I am not sure that the system has been transformed just for Patrick - first of all, it has not been transformed THAT much in the last years. Probably the judges are using this system a bit differently now (sadly, it's possible) - especially when it comes to Chan, because they are so impressed with his skating skills. And probably not just because of that, but I don't know much enough about these things to be able to tell.

About Browning, I like him, but he is "too much" for me, yes he is a comic artist, but his humor is too American for my European taste. I hope you understand me...I can't tell you better..

I understand you - although I am European too. Probably Evgeni's humor is a bit too Russian for me sometimes (although I like many Russian skaters and their style). But Kurt Browning is not just a comic skater either - I have to mention his great 'Nyah' program once again. And he has other interesting programs that are not very comic.

[lala]

I agree about growing up under the new system. As I already mentioned, it's not Evgeni's fault that he didn't grow up under this same system, and was taught differently. It's very likely that he would also skate differently if he had grown up under this system. But I don't think that Chan's SS components were too high. Or, if they were, then other skater's components at some competitions have also been too high - like Daisuke's components at Japan Open. This has been a tendency lately to give extremely high PCSs to the best skaters, whereas before judges were reluctant to award skaters with really high components marks. I am not sure that the system has been transformed just for Patrick - first of all, it has not been transformed THAT much in the last years. Probably the judges are using this system a bit differently now (sadly, it's possible) - especially when it comes to Chan, because they are so impressed with his skating skills. And probably not just because of that, but I don't know much enough about these things to be able to tell.

I understand you - although I am European too. Probably Evgeni's humor is a bit too Russian for me sometimes (although I like many Russian skaters and their style). But Kurt Browning is not just a comic skater either - I have to mention his great 'Nyah' program once again. And he has other interesting programs that are not very comic.

Yes,I know you are European, I see. I believe you that Evgeni's humor is too Russian , maybe I don't know the Russian humor. I also like the Nyah program.
______
Maybe you are right in your analysis. Patrick is great, but I'm waiting for his consistently flawless performances.

[lala]

http://dustmandayo.gallery.ru/watch?a=bASl-jgZ4
"Just 30" show - Photos by @dust_man: Zhenya's costume & medals

[yaya124]

http://dustmandayo.gallery.ru/watch?a=bASl-jgZ4
"Just 30" show - Photos by @dust_man: Zhenya's costume & medals

Just to mention that Cherub721 opens an fan thread under Trash Can.

[lala]

Just to mention that Cherub721 opens an fan thread under Trash Can.

Really? Thank you!!Cherub721!

[lauravvv]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKEEuxPEP0U Plushy's steps in old system, montage, his steps were very difficoult, fast,interesting.

I also forgot to write - we all know that Plushenko has quick feet, most likely quicker than many other of the best skaters. I know most of the rules, but I am not an expert, and I can't recognize many steps in a real performance. Still, I think that in the current system many of the steps that Evgeni is doing in those performances wouldn't be rewarded very highely. You see that he is running on his toe picks a lot in those steps, but obviously now steps where the blade stays wholly on the ice are rewarded more. Of course, skaters still have little hops, jumps and a bit of running in their steps (as does Chan in his programs), but not as much as Evgeni in those steps. So, he has to do different steps now to get the needed marks.

[lala]

I also forgot to write - we all know that Plushenko has quick feet, most likely quicker than many other of the best skaters. I know most of the rules, but I am not an expert, and I can't recognize many steps in a real performance. Still, I think that in the current system many of the steps that Evgeni is doing in those performances wouldn't be rewarded very highely. You see that he is running on his toe picks a lot in those steps, but obviously now steps where the blade stays wholly on the ice are rewarded more. Of course, skaters still have little hops, jumps and a bit of running in their steps (as does Chan in his programs), but not as much as Evgeni in those steps. So, he has to do different steps now to get the needed marks.

Maybe. But for me, who is only a fan of figure skating the old steps were more interesting. Fast, and difficult, enjoyable to watch. I don't think, that the new system is from the God, and we have to love. Look at the empty seats in the arenas. Thanks to the new system.