Repeating jumps question

[johndockley92]

I know you can only repeat two triples in a program, how does this work for quads?

Can you repeat a quad and repeat two triples? Or is the rule about repeating triples and up?

[Sylvia]

Can you repeat a quad and repeat two triples?

Yes because quads are not considered the same as triples in the current rules.

ETA: That's why Javier Fernandez could do 4S, a 3F half loop 3S combo, and a solo 3S in his Skate Canada FS last night.

[skatak]

he also could have done :
4T-1/2 Lp-3S
4S-3T
4T
4S
3S-3T
;-)

[A.H.Black]

With quads as with triples - one of the two must be done in combination, right?

I had this discussion with a friend last year at Nationals and she didn't believe me.

[steve skater]

he also could have done :
4T-1/2 Lp-3S
4S-3T
4T
4S
3S-3T
;-)

This would not be allowed. Of all the triples and quads, only two can be repeated. In your example, the skater would get a star (*; invalid element) for the 3S-3T, as the 3T would be the third quad/triple repeated jump. (I wish this rule were not in place!) As Sylvia mentioned, quads and triples with the same name are not considered the same jump.
So a skater could do, say:
4S
4S-3T
4T
4T-2T
3S
3A
3Lz
3Lo-2T-2Lo

The 4S and 4T are repeated, so no other triple or quads can be repeated, but the skater can still do 3S (as it is a different animal than the 4S). If the 4S-3T had been 4S-2T, then a 3T could be performed in place of another triple with no penalty.

[johndockley92]

^^ Does this not contradict what Sylvia just said? Now I'm confused.

[misskarne]

Bonus question: is there a limit to how many quad jumps a skater can do in a long program? Let's say Artur was fully fit and firing on all cylinders and prepared to unload his entire arsenal. Would he be allowed to do a layout like:

4T-3T
4T
4Lo
4Lz
4S
(and then just add a couple of 3As and a 3Lz?)

[johndockley92]

There is no limit to number of quads performed so long as they are different. Technically speaking, if able to perform, a skater such as Mroz could do 2 4Ts 2 4S, 4f, 4Lo, 4Lz, and 3A

Be one hell of a hard program though lol quads way deep in the program

[LilJen]

^^ Does this not contradict what Sylvia just said? Now I'm confused.

In skatak's example, the skater repeated 4T and 3T. That's it for jumps you can repeat (only two may be repeated). So if he did two 3S, the second 3sal would be invalid. He'd have to do another type of jump instead. Make sense? (Otherwise you'd get even further off the ideal of attempting all jump takeoffs; a skater could do, in 8 jumping passes, two 3Ts, two 4Ts, two lutzes, two flips, etc.)

[gkelly]

Another way to think of it:

You're allowed to repeat a maximum of two different jumps that have 3 or more revolutions.

Triple and quad jumps from the same takeoff are considered different jumps.

You're still limited to two repeats. And whichever jump you repeat can only be performed two times (instead of one). It is never allowed to do the same triple or quad jump more than twice.

[ltnskater]

^^ Does this not contradict what Sylvia just said? Now I'm confused.

No, to add on to the above post... In other words, a triple jump and a quad jump of the same type are NOT the same jump so in the same program, you can do a 4T, 4T+3Lo, and 3T (for example). Here, the 3T counts even though it is the 3rd toeloop jump in the program, but it is different from the quad because it is a triple.

The repeated jumps is another issue... as mentioned above, you can only repeat a maximum of 2 jumps triple OR quad. So if someone did two 4Ts and two 4Ss, that's it, you can not repeat any more triple or quad jumps.

[burntBREAD]

I have a different question regarding repeating jumps. I know of the two triples repeated, one should be in combination and the other should be solo. However, I see a lot of skaters miss an earlier combination and tack on another -2T to a planned solo jump (i.e. a 3S) and still do a planned 3S-2T later. How come one of them doesn't garner the +SEQ? I know that if they did two solo 3S, the second one would be penalized.

[gkelly]

There's no penalty for or rule against doing the repeated jump in combination both times.

one should be in combination and the other should be solo

This is not correct. The requirement is that a repeated jump must be in combination or sequence at least one of the times it's executed.

[kwanfan1818]

Summary for singles FS:

• Only two three-or-more revolution jumps may be repeated
• For each repeated three-or-more revolution jump, at least one must be in combination/sequence; if both are performed solo, the second is treated as a +SEQ and the base value is reduced by to 80%
• Triple and quad versions of the same jump type are not considered the same jump for counting repeats

Independent from the Zayak rule, currently the number of times a 2A can be repeated is two, but both can be solo jumps. So it is possible to have two repeated triple/quads and two 2A's.

[RFOS]

Summary for singles FS:

• Only two three-or-more revolution jumps may be repeated
• For each repeated three-or-more revolution jump, at least one must be in combination/sequence; if both are performed solo, the second is treated as a +SEQ and the value is reduced by 80%
• Triple and quad versions of the same jump type are not considered the same jump for counting repeats

Independent from the Zayak rule, currently the number of times a 2A can be repeated is two, but both can be solo jumps. So it is possible to have two repeated triple/quads and two 2A's.

Good summary, but just to clarify the second instance of a particular 3-or-more-revolution jump has its value multiplied by 0.8 (or 80%), not reduced by 80% (which would be equivalent to multiplying by 20%). This multiplier is applied to the base value (which you may know but some may not), and GOE is applied as usual.

[kwanfan1818]

Thanks! I've made the corrections.

ETA: Also, the base as reported in the protocols, includes the 10% bonus, if applicable.

[skatak]

This would not be allowed. Of all the triples and quads, only two can be repeated. In your example, the skater would get a star (*; invalid element) for the 3S-3T, as the 3T would be the third quad/triple repeated jump. (I wish this rule were not in place!) As Sylvia mentioned, quads and triples with the same name are not considered the same jump.
So a skater could do, say:
4S
4S-3T
4T
4T-2T
3S
3A
3Lz
3Lo-2T-2Lo

The 4S and 4T are repeated, so no other triple or quads can be repeated, but the skater can still do 3S (as it is a different animal than the 4S). If the 4S-3T had been 4S-2T, then a 3T could be performed in place of another triple with no penalty.

that looked too easy, should've remembered the 'no more than two similar triple+ jumps repeated'. In my example the 3S of the last combo would be already invalid.

[maatTheViking]

Can you do your repeated jumps as 2 different combinations?

say a
4T + 3T
4T + 3T + 2S

2 identical combinations?
4T + 3T
4T + 3T

and

can you repeat 2 and lower revolution jumps as many times as you would like?

say
4T + 2T
4T + 2T
3T + 2T
3S + 2T

etc etc?

this looks wrong to me...

[burntBREAD]

Can you do your repeated jumps as 2 different combinations?

say a
4T + 3T
4T + 3T + 2S

2 identical combinations?
4T + 3T
4T + 3T

and

can you repeat 2 and lower revolution jumps as many times as you would like?

say
4T + 2T
4T + 2T
3T + 2T
3S + 2T

etc etc?

this looks wrong to me...

Well, you can only have 3 combos but you can repeat 2T and 2Lo as much as you like.

[carriecmu0503]

Can you do your repeated jumps as 2 different combinations?

say a
4T + 3T
4T + 3T + 2S


There would be nothing wrong with this- you can repeat a MAXIMUM of TWO jumps, as long as at least ONE of them is in combination/sequence. It is fine if they are both in combination.

2 identical combinations?
4T + 3T
4T + 3T

This is fine, see my above explanation.

and

can you repeat 2 and lower revolution jumps as many times as you would like?

say
4T + 2T
4T + 2T
3T + 2T
3S + 2T

etc etc?

this looks wrong to me...

This is NOT okay, as you can only do a total of THREE combinations/sequences, and only ONE of them may be a 3jump combo. Double jumps through the Lutz have no limit, however, you can only do a maximum of 2 double Axels.