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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    I believe the logic is that she's going to get - GOE on the 3F, so they are hoping to minimize that by combining it with a 3t, and maximize GOE on the solo triple by making it a lutz with special features.
    And why not a 3Lutz/3T with a solo 3Loop in the SP ?

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Jeremy Abbott did the same few years ago. I've never understood as well.
    With the men it's even worse since they have the extra jumping pass and nearly all are capable of doing 3/3s they have to purposefully only do one combination ending in 3T otherwise they have to repeat the easiest triple where most want to repeat two of the harder triples. There's not a whole lot of point in going for 4T+3T or 3A+3T in the LP when you can only do the 3T once in the programme to repeat a harder triple so you may as well do easier 2Ts after the harder elements and put the 3T after an easier triple.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    With the men it's even worse since they have the extra jumping pass and nearly all are capable of doing 3/3s they have to purposefully only do one combination ending in 3T otherwise they have to repeat the easiest triple where most want to repeat two of the harder triples. There's not a whole lot of point in going for 4T+3T or 3A+3T in the LP when you can only do the 3T once in the programme to repeat a harder triple so you may as well do easier 2Ts after the harder elements and put the 3T after an easier triple.
    Still, almost all of the men at the top do try either a 4T-3T or a 3A-3T (if you check the last Worlds' Men LP top 5, Chan had a 4T-3T, while Takahashi and Hanyu had a 3A-3T, as well as Joubert - only Amodio didn't perform either combination). That being said, I remember a time when everyone in the top 15, if not in the top 20, would try a 3A-3T - I must say I kinda miss that

  4. #24

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    I prefer the 3t-3t and 3F/Z over the old standard (3Z-2t and 3F). Most of the ladies were lipping or flutzing anyway, so really the lutz/lip/flutz/flip was the only triple we were seeing in ladies' SPs for years. At least with the 3t-3t we are seeing a greater variety of skills.
    What I'd like even more is for the back end triple of a harder combination to be worth more (ie the 3toe at the end of 3z-3t is worth more than same jump at the end of 3t-3t). Skaters like Gold , Tukt and Kim have mastered a truly difficult and risky combo, and don't get rewarded enough for them (especially in the LP , relative to 2a-3t).

    Someone mentioned Yuna starting the 2a-3t trend. I'm not a big fan of that combo getting massive scores either, but I don't blame Yuna. She's not permitted to do a 3z-3t and 3t-3t, two combos that are well within her ability. So she did 2a-3t instead of the 3t-3t. Yeah, she could have done 3z-3t and 3f-3t, but where's the reward for that?

    For Gold the 3z-3t is a super jump, but she faces a dilemma which solo jump for the SP. The 3F is getting edge calls, the 3L is her least consistent jump. Hopefully she can fix the edge on the 3F and this won't be an issue.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    And why not a 3Lutz/3T with a solo 3Loop in the SP ?
    3loop is Gracie's least consistent jump.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  6. #26
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    Think of how different the SP results would be if they were still doing the 3Lz and 3F! haha.
    I think 3T+3T is sooooooooooooooo significantly easier than a 3Lz+2T.... so lots of these skaters who can't do the lutz or flip are doing well in the SP now.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyBut View Post
    What I'd like even more is for the back end triple of a harder combination to be worth more (ie the 3toe at the end of 3z-3t is worth more than same jump at the end of 3t-3t). Skaters like Gold , Tukt and Kim have mastered a truly difficult and risky combo, and don't get rewarded enough for them (especially in the LP , relative to 2a-3t).
    I really like this idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyBut View Post
    Someone mentioned Yuna starting the 2a-3t trend. I'm not a big fan of that combo getting massive scores either, but I don't blame Yuna. She's not permitted to do a 3z-3t and 3t-3t, two combos that are well within her ability. So she did 2a-3t instead of the 3t-3t. Yeah, she could have done 3z-3t and 3f-3t, but where's the reward for that?
    Well, I guess that's why she did three 2A's back when she could.

    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    The thing that annoys me more than that is ladies FS that have two double axels. I hate that almost none of the ladies these days are going for 7 triple freeskates like they used to and instead of going for 6 triple ones with maybe one triple-triple combo or a double axel-triple toe combo. I also don't like that almost no one goes for 2 lutzes and 2 flips in the free skate now since most of the ladies want to play it safe and/or have edge problems on one of the jumps.
    LP's with 2 Triple Lutzes and 2 Triple Flips for women were pretty rare even back in the day. I can't think of any ladies who were known for doing that, except for AP McDonough. Anyone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    What I hate most about short program combination jumps is that some skaters do a harder combo in the short and revert to an easier one in the free. Suzuki / Zawadzki / Kostner: 3toe3toe in the short, 2axel3toe in the free. Wagner: 3flip3toe in the short, 2axel3toe in the free. Zhang: 3loop3loop in the short, only 3/2s in the free. I blame this on the lack of bonus merit for combination jumps.
    I can't blame them. The LP is much more taxing than the SP is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    And I find it fascinating that Gold does a 3flip3toe in the short but a 3lutz3toe in the free. I can't find a reasonable explanation as to why she would want to split her focus like that. I can understand not repeating spins across the short and long programs , but jumps? Why?
    I wonder if it's for training/practice purposes...

  8. #28

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    But the thing is that most of the ladies who are attempting 3t 3t in their sp goes for triple loop, not lutz or flip, as solo triple.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUNKPRINCESS View Post
    LP's with 2 Triple Lutzes and 2 Triple Flips for women were pretty rare even back in the day. I can't think of any ladies who were known for doing that, except for AP McDonough. Anyone else?
    Liashenko started attempting 2 lutzes and 2 flips in 2004, but at the same time also gave up her loop attempt. So this isn't a pre-COP example, but she is probably the first top tier lady to do so. Suguri and Kwan promptly followed suit in 2005.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by l'etoile View Post
    But the thing is that most of the ladies who are attempting 3t 3t in their sp goes for triple loop, not lutz or flip, as solo triple.
    I don't think that's quite right. If you look at the protocol for worlds you had 10 ladies attempt 3T+3T in the SP, of those 5 went for lutz or flip (Leonova, Murakami, Suzuki, Zhang and Glebova), 4 went for Loop (Kostner, Makarova, Helgesson and Silete) and Turkilla went for 3S. So it's about even with ladies going for 3T/3T and the two harder triples compared to trying to the two easier triples. And that is out of the entire field.

    Interestingly the only skater to land a 3Lz+3T went for a solo 3S and that was Gedevanishvilli. And several of the other skaters that did just 3/2s that started with flip or lutz, did not attempt the other harder triple as a solo jump. That clearly is because the skaters want to avoid the wrong edge take off penalty, something the skaters of yesteryear (including the likes of Ito) would have been dinged for had those rules been in place.

  11. #31

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    Thanks for explaining, antmanb! I don't know why I was under that impression.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spazactaz View Post
    I think 3T+3T is sooooooooooooooo significantly easier than a 3Lz+2T.
    It's not. Not at all. I think that there just needs to be a pioneer or two (or three) of some sort to get the 3f + 3T and 3Lz + 3T in action. If the top 3 skaters at worlds are all doing it, other ladies will have to.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by l'etoile View Post
    Thanks for explaining, antmanb! I don't know why I was under that impression.
    It might depend on the skaters you watched or were shown on a broadcast....that and the eventual world champ did a Loop.

    Quote Originally Posted by johndockley92 View Post
    It's not. Not at all. I think that there just needs to be a pioneer or two (or three) of some sort to get the 3f + 3T and 3Lz + 3T in action. If the top 3 skaters at worlds are all doing it, other ladies will have to.
    This - i don't think the 3Lz+2T is harder than the 3T+3T at all. These things, as you rightly point out, go in patterns of what the top skaters are landing. When Yuna was skating and including 3F+3T and 3Lz+3T in the short, you had several others attempting similar combinations, or Mao trying 3A in order to keep up. Yuna went, then some of the European skaters started going for 3T+3T in the SP to keep their base value up (3 triples will nearly always score higher than 2 triples and a double) and then many other skaters jumped on the bandwagon. If the Russian ladies start getting to the top their diffiuclt 3/3s will probably turn the tide back again.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    It might depend on the skaters you watched or were shown on a broadcast....that and eventual world champ did a Loop.

    Well, there's that.

  15. #35
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    Is there a particular reason why no one goes for 3L-3T? There are women who frequently do 3T-3T and two 3L's in their LP.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by kukkura View Post
    Is there a particular reason why no one goes for 3L-3T? There are women who frequently do 3T-3T and two 3L's in their LP.
    The 3L-3T is just a much tougher combination to pull off successfully. Skaters can successfully land solo 3Lutzes but then do they have enough speed on the landings and are their bodies in the correct position to pull off the 3T? The take-off of the lutz tends to make the skater pitch forward on the landings and they lose speed as a result of that. I'm sure in the stress-filled SP, the skaters just want to go with the combo that they know they have at least an 80% chance of hitting.

  17. #37
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    You people who think the 3T+3T is harder are delusional. I'd say 90% of skaters would agree, over the 3Lz+2T. Just because it is a 3+3 is COMPLETELY irrelevant. Let's ask Carolina Kostner, Julia Turkilla, Elena Glebova.. etc. They all nail their easy 3+3 but where's their consistent 3Lz?
    I do these jumps everyday.... I'm thinking those who are disagreeing are not jumping these combos. :p

  18. #38
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    Well, you have to compare skaters that are consistent with both their 3lutzes and the 3toes. Kostner lost her 3Ltz so of course that's a very difficult jump for her. For skaters with consistent 3L, I'd think it would be "nothing" to tackle on a 2toe afterward. But for the 3t-3t, the second jump is still a triple! I wouldn't classify a 3t-3t as harder than a 3l-2t, but I wouldn't say it's so much easier either.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    The 3L-3T is just a much tougher combination to pull off successfully. Skaters can successfully land solo 3Lutzes but then do they have enough speed on the landings and are their bodies in the correct position to pull off the 3T? The take-off of the lutz tends to make the skater pitch forward on the landings and they lose speed as a result of that. I'm sure in the stress-filled SP, the skaters just want to go with the combo that they know they have at least an 80% chance of hitting.
    I meant 3loop-3toe. I don't think I've ever seen it. Korpi planned it when she was younger but settled for 3t-3t.

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by kukkura View Post
    I meant 3loop-3toe. I don't think I've ever seen it.
    Not a short program, but here's a good attempt by a lady.

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