Ladies SP jump elements -- changing standards?

[Ziggy]

What I think we're missing in this discussion about 3Toe-3 Toe vs 3 Lutz-2Toe is that the 3 Lutz by itself is very difficult. Theoretically any skater with a 3Toe should be able to do a 3Toe-3Toe with a decent amount of practice. But the thing about skating is that the 3 toe isn't where everyone stops. They go on to learn new and harder jumps that they don't necessarily have the time or put in the effort to learn the 3Toe-3Toe.

What we are missing in this discussion is that skaters don't perform jumps with no preparation for all the obvious reasons. They first do some progressives and/or crossovers to build enough speed. Then the slowly do the two three-turns in and then plant the jump. Most skaters telegraph their jumps to a smaller or larger extent.

If you do a 3toe/3toe combination, everything that I've written above goes away. You have to perform a 3toe right off the landing of a triple toe. Unless your first 3toe was perfect you won't have ideal balance or landing speed, you'll be fatigued because of just having landed a jump and even if that landing was perfect you have to perform a triple jump with no preparation.

Also, you can tack a 2toe at the end of the 3lutz even if it wasn't landed well. You cannot tack a 3toe at the end of a 3toe if it wasn't landed well. Unless you're Stefan Lindemann.

Like... who?
With the overwhelming amount of ladies doing 3T+3T now, yet not having consistent (or at all) 3F or 3Lz, it's evidently proving otherwise.
I suck at skating but still find the 3T+3T fairly easy, at least in comparison.

The overwhelming amount of ladies aren't doing 3toe/3toe now.

If you look at the jump progression of skaters as they go from junior to senior, in the vast majority of cases they first perform 3lutz/2toe before being able to perform any 3/3 combos. Hanyu had a consistent 3axel before he was able to land any 3/3 combos.

Kiira Korpi has done 3T-3T and two 3Ls for years, so did Laura Lepistö. I know it doesn't work like that, that's why I was asking in the first place and you didn't provide me with an answer.

The answer: The gain not worth the effort put in. Working on 3lutz/3toe or 3flip/3toe makes much more sense because in an ideal world you want to do both 3flip and 3lutz in your SP.

[johndockley92]

It's incredibly more difficult to do a 3T + 3T combo than a 3lz + 2t because of the skill required to do a triple on the end of a combination, even a 2T + 3T is more difficult than a 3lz + 2T.

I think in a few years the lutz toe or flip toe combo will be more common in the ladies SP

[Spazactaz]

If you do a 3toe/3toe combination, everything that I've written above goes away. You have to perform a 3toe right off the landing of a triple toe. Unless your first 3toe was perfect you won't have ideal balance or landing speed, you'll be fatigued because of just having landed a jump and even if that landing was perfect you have to perform a triple jump with no preparation.

When did you last jump this combination? I did yesterday, and certainly didn't experience ANY of what you're saying?! Even in my current horrible condition.. I'm not "fatigued" after doing a simple 3T. Doing the jump with no preparation makes NO difference once it's consistent either.
It sounds like you don't even skate and are just making this up out of nowhere. :p

[ioana]

It sounds like you don't even skate and are just making this up out of nowhere. :p

As an alternate explanation, based on what I see at my lower-level freestyle sessions, boys tend to have an easier time pulling off jumps like 2toes even when the take-off is less than ideal. Girls, OTOH, tend to pop or open up jumps when they're off in the air. It could be as simple as men have an easier time muscling up a 3toe and women don't. I definitely see more guys tacking on 3toes out of iffy landings than girls.

[mag]

I think there are some people who have an easier time with combinations in general. Dd has a friend who is a much better solo jumper than dd, but she has a terrible time even putting a 2 toe on the end of a solo jump. Dd can put a 2 toe on anything - even the worst, messiest double. Perhaps the same applies to triples (I'll let you know in a few years when she gets there ) Some skater have the right technique or the right combinations of muscles, or the right timing, or whatever, and putting a 3 toe as a second jump works for them. (I won't call it easy because really none of it is easy!) for others, getting a harder solo triple works better. I just like that there are options that allow skaters to show off their strengths.

[briancoogaert]

I think there are some people who have an easier time with combinations in general. Dd has a friend who is a much better solo jumper than dd, but she has a terrible time even putting a 2 toe on the end of a solo jump. Dd can put a 2 toe on anything - even the worst, messiest double. Perhaps the same applies to triples (I'll let you know in a few years when she gets there ) Some skater have the right technique or the right combinations of muscles, or the right timing, or whatever, and putting a 3 toe as a second jump works for them. (I won't call it easy because really none of it is easy!) for others, getting a harder solo triple works better. I just like that there are options that allow skaters to show off their strengths.

You are right. That was the case in France between Philippe Candeloro and Eric Millot. Philippe hated combinations, and Eric loved it (3Lz/3T, 3F/3Loop ...)

[screech]

Who can't do a 3t/3t? Aside from Rochette and Osmond, pretty much every Canadian lady... Though Amelie Lacoste had a pretty decent 3loop/loop attempt about 2 years ago...

As a former figure skater, I can say that it is harder to do a jump after another one. At least for me it was. That's not to say I couldn't land the second jumps, but without the speed and proper curve of the edge when exiting the first jump, it can be difficult to get the height necessary for the second jump to be 100% successful. Note that I cay "can".

It's kind of weird actually. When I first learned a double toe or loop, then a triple toe or loop, the easiest way for me to get the feel for it was to first try it in a combination with less speed. It would be under rotated, but I could get a feel for it. Only then could I be successful doing it as a solo jump, with more speed. And then once it was good as a solo jump, I would then start doing it as a combination. I got my triple loop consistent by doing triple loop/triple loop combos - I wasn't focusing so much on the first one because I was focusing on the second one, and it made the first one come more easily. Loops for me were easier than toes, though, as the 2nd jump of a combo, because not as much speed was required, as long as I could get the right timing and knee bend.

[sk8ingcoach]

For me as a current skater, I can do consistant 3T+3T but I can't even get close to a triple lutz

I have a good toe so even when my first toe is shaky I can still pull off the second one most of the time.

[antmanb]

When did you last jump this combination? I did yesterday, and certainly didn't experience ANY of what you're saying?! Even in my current horrible condition.. I'm not "fatigued" after doing a simple 3T. Doing the jump with no preparation makes NO difference once it's consistent either.
It sounds like you don't even skate and are just making this up out of nowhere. :p

Why would you think that your experience and only yours is valid or representative of every skater in the world who can land both a dtriple toe and a triple lutz?

[Triple Butz]

Originally Posted by Spazactaz

When did you last jump this combination? I did yesterday, and certainly didn't experience ANY of what you're saying?! Even in my current horrible condition.. I'm not "fatigued" after doing a simple 3T. Doing the jump with no preparation makes NO difference once it's consistent either.
It sounds like you don't even skate and are just making this up out of nowhere. :p

[Triple Butz]

Why would you think that your experience and only yours is valid or representative of every skater in the world who can land both a dtriple toe and a triple lutz?

I don't mean to speak for someone else, but I think the point is that we have one opinion from someone with actual experience and another from someone who has never done a triple jump. When you're sick do you go to see your doctor, or visit your neighbor who has seen a lot of episodes of Grey's Anatomy?

[antmanb]

I don't mean to speak for someone else, but I think the point is that we have one opinion from someone with actual experience and another from someone who has never done a triple jump. When you're sick do you go to see your doctor, or visit your neighbor who has seen a lot of episodes of Grey's Anatomy?

Because, of course, we never go to see specialists, or get second opinions from doctors or find doctors that disagree with diagnoses or remedies

One person's personal experience does not equal the only thing there is to know about a subject. With all due respect to Spazactaz I would say Kristi Yamaguchi, for example, is a more accomplished skater than Spazactaz, and when asked the question for her which is the hardest triple (excluding the axel), she would surely answer the triple salchow....now does that mean that it really is the hardest triple of all? Kristi could land the 3Lz+3T, but i doubt she ever landed the 3s+3T....so which combination is really the harder one?

And just because someone has never landed a triple jump, it doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about technically. Would you question Mishin's ability to teach a skater to land quads despite having never even come close to landing one himself?

[gkelly]

As a skater who only does single jumps, I would defer to a skater who does triples as having a better sense of what's harder or easier at that level. The triple jumper's personal experience is more valid than my personal experience when it comes to triple jumps.

But any one skater's experience of what is most difficult for him or her is just one valid data point, which by itself may be typical or may be atypical.

That skater may also have observed many other skaters working on similar skills and be able to put his/her own experience in context. Or not -- it depends how observant and analytical that skater is about what's going on elsewhere on the ice, but most likely they have had the opportunity to observe and discuss with other skaters at that level.

Long-time coaches who have taught or attempted to teach many skaters to do the skills in question (and observed other skaters working on them with other coaches) are probably in the best position to know what's typically easier or harder for skaters to learn, or to maintain once learned.

Anyone else who has a broad experience of observing skaters trying to learn these skills or to execute them in competition could also have a good basis for a summarizing opinion not privileging one person's experience. But if they haven't worked on the technical process of learning the skills their conclusions might be limited. E.g., as fans we can synthesize what we've seen from all the skaters we've seen in competition, what they choose to do more often and how successful they are. But we can't always know whether they're choosing to compete with easier skills because they're more consistent or with harder skills because they're worth more. The specific scoring rules might have an effect on that choice.

And if we're looking only at the pool of international-level competitors and not also at all the skaters who are doing their best to get to that level but most of whom won't succeed, we may be skewing or sample inappropriately.

Skaters for whom the higher scoring elements come easier are lucky enough to have an advantage. They are probably exceptions. If not, if the higher valued element is actually easier for most skaters, then the values should probably be readjusted.

[Spazactaz]

One person's personal experience does not equal the only thing there is to know about a subject. With all due respect to Spazactaz I would say Kristi Yamaguchi, for example, is a more accomplished skater than Spazactaz, and when asked the question for her which is the hardest triple (excluding the axel), she would surely answer the triple salchow....now does that mean that it really is the hardest triple of all? Kristi could land the 3Lz+3T, but i doubt she ever landed the 3s+3T....so which combination is really the harder one?

...srsly now. Obviously I'm not saying every skater in the world is like this... there are always exceptions. But in general, the 3Lz is more difficult. Why else would it get more points than the rest of the triples?? 3S is the easiest one for me... (like 3T and 3S are for most skaters)... but just because it's hardest for Kristi, does that mean it should get more points than a 3Lz?? Definitely not.

[bardtoob]

I think it is funny that people are using Yamaguchi as an example of somebody that could easily perform a 3Lz, given current standards and the thread topic

[briancoogaert]

I think it is funny that people are using Yamaguchi as an example of somebody that could easily perform a 3Lz, given current standards and the thread topic

What do you mean ?

[antmanb]

...srsly now. Obviously I'm not saying every skater in the world is like this... there are always exceptions. But in general, the 3Lz is more difficult. Why else would it get more points than the rest of the triples?? 3S is the easiest one for me... (like 3T and 3S are for most skaters)... but just because it's hardest for Kristi, does that mean it should get more points than a 3Lz?? Definitely not.

That's was exactly the point I was making! I don't think the 3S is easier than the 3Lz I was using an example of one skater's preferences not necessarily being "the rule" when it comes to jumps. Just because you personally find the 3T+3T easier than the 3Lz+2T doesn't mean that it obvjectively is and I thought this had turned into a pretty good debate about the relative difficulty of the two combinations.

The reason I said what I did was because you asked Ziggy

When did you last jump this combination? I did yesterday...It sounds like you don't even skate and are just making this up out of nowhere.

So I guess if the you have to have landed these jumps in order to discuss them...we should all leave the thread.