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  1. #1
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    Ladies SP jump elements -- changing standards?

    For most of the last decade, ladies had to perform a 3Lz+2T, 3F out of steps, and 2A in the short to be considered competitive.

    We've now gone through two Grand Prix events where a skater has yet to do these elements (barring Gracie Gold, who did a 3F combo and 3Lz out of steps).

    Nowadays, it seems the 3T+3T has become the combination of choice. It's arguably easier than a 3Lz+2T, and earns slightly fewer points (8.2 base points versus 8.3). Solo 3F and solo 3Lo have pretty much become normalized in terms of value (5.3 and 5.1 base points, respectively).

    Have Lutzes and flips gone the way of the dinosaur? The last two World champs omitted at least one of the jumps from their program, and you'd be hard pressed to a senior lady with both a true Lutz and flip.

    There's little incentive for skaters to fix their edge calls or even try the jumps because the Lutz combo and flip are no longer the benchmark elements.

    I like seeing jump variety, but I think it's a shame skaters aren't pushing themselves.

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    I think with the heightened expectations towards female technical advances, skaters are going for 3t-3t, which is clearly much easier than 3flip-3toe or 3lutz-3toe, rather than 3-2 of any kind. It'd give out the impression that they're not losing the touch but unfortunately that's all.

    I can't agree more with what you said about how it is so rare to see a lady try a program with both true lutz and flip. (Also Yuna is one of very few who includes both of the jumps in her SP repertoire; for three seasons with 3f-3t, 3lutz and for two seasons with 3lutz-3toe, 3flip.)
    Things almost seem like 3loop is a required element for senior ladies short program lately. Such a mehhhh.

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    Ummm... 3T+3T is worth 8.2, but 3Lz+2T is only 7.3, so if you can do 3T+3T the choice is obvious.

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    ladies are jumping to the 3T-3T bandwagon so much
    even Yuna's influenced 3Lz-3T has been shadowed though its more difficult

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by umronnie View Post
    Ummm... 3T+3T is worth 8.2, but 3Lz+2T is only 7.3, so if you can do 3T+3T the choice is obvious.
    Ronnie is right, I can't do math. I am such an idiot.

    However my point is the same re: no incentive to fix edge calls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by all_empty View Post
    Ronnie is right, I can't do math. I am such an idiot.

    However my point is the same re: no incentive to fix edge calls.
    and no incentive to go for harder jumps

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    The thing that annoys me more than that is ladies FS that have two double axels. I hate that almost none of the ladies these days are going for 7 triple freeskates like they used to and instead of going for 6 triple ones with maybe one triple-triple combo or a double axel-triple toe combo. I also don't like that almost no one goes for 2 lutzes and 2 flips in the free skate now since most of the ladies want to play it safe and/or have edge problems on one of the jumps.

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    I love the 3toe3toe combo for the short and prefer it to the 3lutz2toe which had been THE combination for 20 years. Time to move on.

    What I hate most about short program combination jumps is that some skaters do a harder combo in the short and revert to an easier one in the free. Suzuki / Zawadzki / Kostner: 3toe3toe in the short, 2axel3toe in the free. Wagner: 3flip3toe in the short, 2axel3toe in the free. Zhang: 3loop3loop in the short, only 3/2s in the free. I blame this on the lack of bonus merit for combination jumps.

    And I find it fascinating that Gold does a 3flip3toe in the short but a 3lutz3toe in the free. I can't find a reasonable explanation as to why she would want to split her focus like that. I can understand not repeating spins across the short and long programs , but jumps? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    The thing that annoys me more than that is ladies FS that have two double axels. I hate that almost none of the ladies these days are going for 7 triple freeskates like they used to and instead of going for 6 triple ones with maybe one triple-triple combo or a double axel-triple toe combo. I also don't like that almost no one goes for 2 lutzes and 2 flips in the free skate now since most of the ladies want to play it safe and/or have edge problems on one of the jumps.
    With only 7 jumping passes and an axel requirement, if you can't do a 3/3, the easiest bet for a 7 triple free skate is do what Wagner / Suzuki does - do 6 triples, and tag the 3toe after the 2axel. Wagner is attempting 7 triples and 2 2axels this season, but with the loop and axel in sequence and hence only 80% credit for both. Looks like Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya and Gold are planning 7 triples and 2 2axels, with Gold's layout being the most ambitious because it involves repeating lutz and flip.

    Another way is do what Murakami does this season - do 7 solo triples and tag a 2axel at the end of one triple. Not only do you only get 80% value for the sequence, there is a risk that if you miss the first triple, you miss the axel attempt which nullifies the whole final pass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by l'etoile View Post
    I think with the heightened expectations towards female technical advances, skaters are going for 3t-3t, which is clearly much easier than 3flip-3toe or 3lutz-3toe, rather than 3-2 of any kind. It'd give out the impression that they're not losing the touch but unfortunately that's all.

    I can't agree more with what you said about how it is so rare to see a lady try a program with both true lutz and flip. (Also Yuna is one of very few who includes both of the jumps in her SP repertoire; for three seasons with 3f-3t, 3lutz and for two seasons with 3lutz-3toe, 3flip.)
    Things almost seem like 3loop is a required element for senior ladies short program lately. Such a mehhhh.
    I agree with you. I think base points of 3F and 3Lz should be higher. Skaters who can do difficult combinations like 3Lz+3T(3Lo), 3F+3T(Lo) or 5 triples in their FS should be more rewarded than now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    And I find it fascinating that Gold does a 3flip3toe in the short but a 3lutz3toe in the free. I can't find a reasonable explanation as to why she would want to split her focus like that. I can understand not repeating spins across the short and long programs , but jumps? Why?
    I believe the logic is that she's going to get - GOE on the 3F, so they are hoping to minimize that by combining it with a 3t, and maximize GOE on the solo triple by making it a lutz with special features.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

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    It's the same reason why almost all the men were doing 3 flip-3 toe from 2005-2010...the scale of that combination vs. a 4 toe/salchow-(some 2nd jump) wasn't worth the risk.

    The only way the judges could, erm, "manipulate" the scoring for rewarding harder combinations would be to either a) "inflate" Components Scores to reflect a more difficult set of technical set of elements attempted/completed, or b) "inflate" GOEs for the harder combination, regardless of how poorly it was actually executed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    I believe the logic is that she's going to get - GOE on the 3F, so they are hoping to minimize that by combining it with a 3t, and maximize GOE on the solo triple by making it a lutz with special features.
    Then she really should have stuck with 3flip3toe in the long as well. Why waste time practicing a different, difficult trick?

    It's the same fascination I had last year when S&S attempted throw 3axel in the short but throw 3flip and 3sal in the long.

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    Gracie is better off doing 3lz-3t because her 3f is consistently getting edge calls now while her 3lz-3t, when she hits it well, has the quality to garner big GOEs like +2s. Yuna switched her combo for the same reason I think. I would maybe even like to see Gracie try 3lo as her solo triple in the SP so she can gain consistency with that jump, if she can just land it it will likely gain more points than her 3f with an edge call. If she still wants to go for the Rippon lutz she could do 3lz-3t in her FS and then do the 2nd 3lutz Rippon style. In the FS though I don't think she should ditch the 3f-1/2lo-3s combo though because even with an edge call that combo is worth huge points.

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    Then she really should have stuck with 3lutz3toe in the long as well. Why waste time practicing a different, difficult trick?

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    ^ Kimmie used to practice both tricks. I think it's fine. Since Gracie seems to be a natural jumper, I don't think it's much effort or makes much of a difference for her to practice both combos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post


    With only 7 jumping passes and an axel requirement, if you can't do a 3/3, the easiest bet for a 7 triple free skate is do what Wagner / Suzuki does - do 6 triples, and tag the 3toe after the 2axel. Wagner is attempting 7 triples and 2 2axels this season, but with the loop and axel in sequence and hence only 80% credit for both. Looks like Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya and Gold are planning 7 triples and 2 2axels, with Gold's layout being the most ambitious because it involves repeating lutz and flip.

    Another way is do what Murakami does this season - do 7 solo triples and tag a 2axel at the end of one triple. Not only do you only get 80% value for the sequence, there is a risk that if you miss the first triple, you miss the axel attempt which nullifies the whole final pass.
    I'm fine with ladies doing 2 double axels if they are attempting 7 triple jumps (because they have to since doing another triple would violate the Zayak rule and the rule that you can't do more than 7 triples). The thing I'm saying is that skaters are going for 2 axel-3 triple toes or 3-3s and still only do 6 triples in their programs because they repeat the double axel again (because they want to go clean and also because they have a problematic jump). For one example, Yuna... She's rarely gone for 7 triple programs. It's also be a couple seasons since Mirai has attempted a 7 triples FS. And now the 2 axel-triple toe has become the "it" jump combo, when it was rarely seen between 2006-2009.

  17. #17

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    The Zayak rule actually says you can't repeat more than two triples and if triples are repeated they must be in a combination or sequence. If a skater attempts a triple axel it is possible to have 8 triples in a LP.
    A good rant is cathartic. Ranting is what keeps me sane. They always come from a different place. Take the prime minister, for example. Sometimes when I rant about him, I am angry; other times, I am just severely annoyed - it's an important distinction. - Rick Mercer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Then she really should have stuck with 3lutz3toe in the long as well. Why waste time practicing a different, difficult trick?
    I doubt any skaters only practice what are in their programs. She probably adds the 3toe to everything in practice... it wouldn't make any difference when all the jumps are as solid as hers anyway. It can only be a GOOD thing... if she misses is at first, add the 3toe to the second one.

  19. #19

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    Doesn't Gracie have a 3lutz-3toe and a 3flip-1/2loop-3sal in the long? It's likely that she can't comfortably do the salchow off the lutz and she doesn't want to do a 3-3 on the second flip because it's too late in the program. And the edge explanation fits for why it's a 3flip-3toe in the short.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    And I find it fascinating that Gold does a 3flip3toe in the short but a 3lutz3toe in the free. I can't find a reasonable explanation as to why she would want to split her focus like that. I can understand not repeating spins across the short and long programs , but jumps? Why?
    Jeremy Abbott did the same few years ago. I've never understood as well.

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