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  1. #41

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    Total ridiculousness, saying you don't know the rules of the game you're playing.

    If you're skating just to express yourself, appeal to fans or get more attention, skate in shows. If you're there to compete then compete. That has nothing to do with being Pluschenko or doing it P's way; it has to do with engaging what is actual - competitive rules in a competitive environment.

    Speaking of Pluschenko...I'm not the biggest Plushy fan (in terms of his skating style which I know is Mishin's doing) but he makes no excuses - he is committing absolutely and has more that JW in the way of possible excuses (knees, age, I grew up in a 6.0 system). EP has set out a very ambitious goal, the Sochi gold, and is trying to head toward it without excuses. That's a competitor. I don't always like his choreography but I really admire his guts.
    Last edited by Willowway; 10-18-2012 at 08:51 PM.

  2. #42
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    I just don't get how he wines about being oh so heartbroken about how things "shook out" in Vancouver and comes back to the sport while willfully ignoring the rules. The COP system has been in place for a long enough time to not complain about the old 6.0 system. If avid skating fans can understand the system I dont get why the competitor cant. I think its sorta trifling and irresponsible of him to even say that.

    Actually, if anyone should have the excuse of being brought up under an old system it might be that coach of his. Just saying

  3. #43

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    As for my relationship with the federation ever since Vancouver things changed. I became a star in the USA and it's a big difference. The Federation knows I want to bring the viewers back to figure skating, I know they'll support me in getting to the Worlds. Our relationship now is far better than it used to be. I'm not trying to change them, they are not trying to change me.
    I certainly hope that is true.

    I expect that Weir will bring in some viewers who would be interested in Weir as a personality, or in his specific artistic vision, who would not otherwise be interested enough in a skating competition on its own terms to tune in without him. And USFS would benefit from encouraging him to compete for the sake of those viewers.

    Having him AT Nationals will probably drive up TV ratings for Nationals to some degree, which would be a win for both USFS and NBC.

    But I don't think they will go out of their way to put him on the world team or Olympic team. If he places at Nationals, he'll make the team, but I don't think they'll either instruct judges to inflate his score so that he's more likely to place, nor override the Nationals results to put the more famous guy on the team. Weir might be the one (or one of two or three) to put it all together at Nationals. Or other guys might put more together. Part of what makes the competition exciting is having multiple competitors who are capable of deserving medals and the coveted few spots at Worlds. Weir's presence would deepen the field, and so would Lysacek's if he competes. That's a good thing, along with name recognition and more viewers for that reason. But since it's a sport contest not a popularity contest, the most well-known competitors won't necessarily be the ones who earn the top spots.

    In many ways it's too bad that the US can only send a couple of skaters to the one competition that matters most each year, as if everyone who doesn't make the world or Olympic team is an also-ran at best. Popularity of the sport would benefit from having a whole circuit of top-level events worth following, not just one (Nationals) that's important primarily for determining who's worthy of advancing to the one (Worlds or Olympics) that "really" counts to the the viewing public.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post

    In many ways it's too bad that the US can only send a couple of skaters to the one competition that matters most each year, as if everyone who doesn't make the world or Olympic team is an also-ran at best. Popularity of the sport would benefit from having a whole circuit of top-level events worth following, not just one (Nationals) that's important primarily for determining who's worthy of advancing to the one (Worlds or Olympics) that "really" counts to the the viewing public.
    This is where the quantity vs. quality debate comes into question.

    Would competing more times over the course of the season result in less "clean" performances overall?

    Should there be more Senior GP events, even if that means diluting the depth of competition somewhat?

    We would have to compare the Grand Prix series of other individual sports to see whether it's comparable..

  5. #45
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    Of course it's the best for a skater to understand what he/she could do to earn the maximum scores. But I don't think a skater needs to understand completely about the scoring system. The coaches need to. If Johnny follows Galina's instructions, and Galina understands the scoring system well which I believe she does, Johnny should be fine.

    The problem is the coach and the choreographer have to design a program that the skater could execute. To pack a full, difficult program is easy. To execute it is not. I'm afraid that Johnny couldn't do more complicated programs than what he's been doing. Johnny's 2006-07 LP "Child of Nazareth" by Marina Anissina was probably the most complicated but beautiful program of his. But Johnny felt it was out of his comfort zone and he never skated it well enough.

  6. #46
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    Omg, everybody, take a Xanax. I believe he is totally correct when he says people don't understand the scoring. Maybe not the people here, but the general public. You know, the ones who USED to watch skating on TV and keep the ratings up. No they do not understand how Patrick Chan racks up the points so that he still gets giant scores even while falling however many times per competition. I have heard professional commentators within the last year say that a score was hard to believe or understand, "but that's the new system." Many outspoken skating celebrities have said that the skaters are so busy trying to figure out the points system they have forgotten how to skate beautifully. I have read such comments on these boards. So to jump on Johnny for this casual comment is absurd.

  7. #47

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    Totally agree. My husband only watches skating during the Olympics. He couldn't understand how Daisuke got a medal when he fell on a jump and slid across the ice yet other skaters who stayed on their feet got lower scores. Maybe the commentators have to explain the CoP to the audience before the telecasts so they understand it's no longer who skates the best, it's who racks up the most points.

  8. #48
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    Of course Johnny's comment was nothing new (he's stated as much before), nor is it outlandish of him to feel that way. Also, since Johnny is a skater who competes with other skaters and is privy to hearing what other skaters might have to say about CoP, he would certainly know better than most fans what people in the skating community understand or don't understand about CoP. Even skaters who say they like CoP because it is easier to come from behind and they can gain helpful information from looking at the protocols, may not necessarily completely understand CoP, and therefore rely on their coaching team to help them ensure their programs are CoP-worthy.

    This is, however, FSU where Johnny Weir's any comment, performance, decision, costume, possible co-op purchase, modeling gig, or failure to include the proper jump in a program can become a lightning rod and set off lengthy, and often "tedious" thread discussions.

    I think the focus on the CoP comment reveals more about those who decry it (and who parody the detractors ) than it does anything about Johnny himself. As usual.

    Actually, the interview contains far more interesting comments by Johnny than the throw-away CoP comment, IMHO.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Actually, the interview contains far more interesting comments by Johnny than the throw-away CoP comment, IMHO.
    ...But the comments for the rest of what Johnny said are yet to come...

  10. #50

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    Article based on an interview with Weir at Finlandia Trophy: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/artic...&vkey=ice_news
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Article based on an interview with Weir at Finlandia Trophy: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/artic...&vkey=ice_news
    "Galina and I talked in the beginning of the year, and she said, 'If you go to a choreographer, they'll make you like they want you to look. It's better just to skate around to the music, hit pretty positions, and I'll tell you if they're good or not,' " Weir said, describing their creative process.

  12. #52
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    COP has been in place for many years. Why does it take so long for Johnny Weir to understand that you either skate to win in competitions or just skate in shows where he can have all the freedom to be totally creative and do what he likes on ice. Maybe that's why he couldn't win. Did Evans complain inccessantly about COP?

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by mossop View Post
    COP has been in place for many years. Why does it take so long for Johnny Weir to understand that you either skate to win in competitions or just skate in shows where he can have all the freedom to be totally creative and do what he likes on ice.
    I think it's a valid choice to compete skating to place as well as you can while remaining true to one's vision. But if your vision doesn't match that of the rule-makers and officials, or if other skaters are just better at accomplishing what the system rewards, then don't complain when you don't earn the points you didn't make an effort to earn.

  14. #54
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    Why does it take so long for Johnny Weir to understand that you either skate to win in competitions or just skate in shows where he can have all the freedom to be totally creative and do what he likes on ice.
    I don't know what things are like elsewhere, but in North America, just "skating in shows" isn't really an option anymore. It's not like this is the 1990s where there would be pro competitions and shows somewhere nearly every weekend all thru the autumn months. I think Weir does do some shows in Japan during the summer, but come fall, there are only a handful of shows in the US and I doubt they pay that well. Even Stars On Ice has only 7 stops here this year.

    So, if he wants to continue skating (and having his skating pay for itself) he needs to compete.

    Still, I do agree with gkelly that if he opts to choreograph his programs for show rather than points, he really can't complain about his results. I guess it is still fair, though, for him to criticize the system itself, and point out things it over and under values. I mean, lots of folks have things to say about that.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    [quoting Johnny, quoting Galina]: "Galina and I talked in the beginning of the year, and she said, 'If you go to a choreographer, they'll make you like they want you to look. It's better just to skate around to the music, hit pretty positions, and I'll tell you if they're good or not,' " Weir said, describing their creative process.
    Whether or not that's an accurate quote of Johnny accurately translating what Galina said, ITA, -- A lot of what Johnny is quoted as saying is often funny and entertaining and often is meant to be. Tone and context and what the original question is that he's responding to are often overlooked on the page. Whatever! Johnny's programs this season are not the best he's ever done, but they certainly are good efforts for him after taking off from eligible competition for two years.

    For more scintillating Johnny quotes: http://quotablejohnnyweir.blogspot.com/

    Quote Originally Posted by mossop View Post
    COP has been in place for many years. Why does it take so long for Johnny Weir to understand that you either skate to win in competitions or just skate in shows where he can have all the freedom to be totally creative and do what he likes on ice. Maybe that's why he couldn't win. Did Evans complain inccessantly about COP?
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I think it's a valid choice to compete skating to place as well as you can while remaining true to one's vision. But if your vision doesn't match that of the rule-makers and officials, or if other skaters are just better at accomplishing what the system rewards, then don't complain when you don't earn the points you didn't make an effort to earn.
    IMO, mossop and gkelly (and others in this thread), you are reading too much into what Johnny was quoted as saying about CoP, and also bringing your own previously conceived notions and opinions about Johnny from his former competitive days to bear on what he's been quoted as saying after his recent comeback debut. There have been several articles written based on the interviews that Johnny gave at Finlandia Trophy, and in none of them was CoP a major or exclusive focus of discussion. So, I truly don't see where you are getting that Johnny has been "incessantly" complaining about CoP since his comeback. Even during his competitive days, he did not "incessantly" complain about CoP, although anyone is obviously free to continue believing he did. To me it seems more that some posters in this thread are doing the "incessant" complaining re their OTT views of Johnny.

    In the history of fs and of sport in general, lots of athletes' visions haven't matched that of the "rule-makers and officials." All of the innovators and risk-takers who helped push forward their sport did not always blindly adhere to the rulebook or to the status quo, and often they paid the price. Some found a way to follow the rules while slyly thumbing their noses too. All hail to diversity and to subversiveness!

    Personally, I find these quotes more interesting:

    Johnny Weir:
    I'm excited to show everyone what I've done, but I'm not putting the pressure on myself to win. The pressure here is strictly to help the audience enjoy, to show them that I'm back, and all I really want is to enjoy what I do.

    I want to sparkle, be the best and skate in the limelight ... but at the end of the day I'm not going to die if I lose to someone or if I miss a podium by 0.1 points.

    I’m not Zhenia Plushenko ... I don’t fight the same way that he does. I have a different soul, a different energy. Of course, I admire what he has done, but for me, I knew it was going to be a slow process.

    It’s not easy to come back and to compete against 17, 18, and 19-year-old kids. Before the Sochi Olympics, I’ll be close to 30, and it’s very hard. Especially when you don’t fight like a dog like Plushenko. It’s a very difficult thing, and I wanted to inspire my fans by doing it.
    Erica Rand:
    Rules of sport should be accessible and understandable. Yet in … fs, some rules for competition are so opaque and convoluted, even at the lowest levels, that coaches, skaters, and judges don’t always know what they are supposed to mean. Sometimes I think the word unf***ingbelievable only begins to describe the situation.

    --from Red Nails, Black Skates, 2012 Duke University Press; Erica Rand is an adult competitive skater and a university professor

  16. #56
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    When was the last time Weir did a 3 jump combo?

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    When was the last time Weir did a 3 jump combo?
    Vancouver. 3Lz2T2T.
    My job requires me to be a juggler, but that does not mean that I enjoy working with clowns.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    So, I truly don't see where you are getting that Johnny has been "incessantly" complaining about CoP since his comeback. Even during his competitive days, he did not "incessantly" complain about CoP, although anyone is obviously free to continue believing he did.
    Maybe that's because neither poster that you referred to said that Johnny was "incessantly" complaining. Mossop asked if Evan was "incessantly" complaining, and gkelly didn't use the word "incessantly" at all.

    To me it seems more that some posters in this thread are doing the "incessant" complaining re their OTT views of Johnny.
    And maybe other posters are incessantly looking for excuses to argue that their view of Johnny is the only correct one.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    To me it seems more that some posters in this thread are doing the "incessant" complaining re their OTT views of Johnny.
    Well, it might be a little like "preemptive strike" on some of the posters part. To me, it might turn out to be necessary to say those things up front. Given what Johnny has said after 2010 Olympics, he might again stir up a controversy after he loses, and some of his uber fans and many non-skating-fans will buy it.
    Last edited by Eyre; 11-07-2012 at 05:53 PM.

  20. #60
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    ^^ Yes, right, Eyre. Even the very thought of Johnny is certainly bound to "stir up a controversy ..." "preemptive strike" Maybe this thread belongs in Politically Incorrect, or a thread about political campaigns and guerrilla warfare!

    The major controversy that I recall surrounding the men's event at 2010 Olympics was Plushy's fit of pique at not winning the gold medal and his outspoken derision of Evan Lysacek winning gold sans macho quad, which has led to resounding aftershocks within the men's field ever since, effectively changing the men's landscape, requirements and expectations.

    BTW, the only mini controversies I can recall associated with Johnny at 2010 Olympics were: 1) a fan giving Johnny a crown of roses after his fp, which he promptly placed on his head in the kiss 'n cry, which some critics castigated him for doing, but perhaps they were just jealous; 2) Johnny responding to media queries re Inman's infamous email to judges; 3) some fur-flying threats re Johnny's original sp costume; 4) Two Canadian broadcasters despicably making fun of Johnny and questioning his gender; 5) Johnny placing 6th overall in both sp and fp behind at least two competitors who clearly performed very poorly. Yep, Johnny was Heartbroken, as were many of his fans, but as far as Johnny complaining a lot, Would you accuse people like Dorothy Hamill, Stephen Colbert and others of aiding and abetting Johnny because they were very kind, supportive and congratulatory toward him during and after the 2010 Olympics? Even Scott Hamilton and Sandra Bezic were surprised at Johnny's low marks relative to skaters placed ahead of Johnny who made mistakes.

    http://kevinmarshall.wordpress.com/2...rts-hypocrisy/

    http://www.advocate.com/news/daily-n...-olympic-image

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...9001644AAVvgDV

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Yb_jdPAeI Weir sp 2010 Olympics -- check out the youtube comments

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er2-MH2KnH8 Weir fp 2010 Olympics -- check out the youtube comments

    So yes right, a lot of people questioned Johnny's marks, but Johnny didn't quite as much. If anything, Johnny was very gracious immediately after his fp, smiling and waving to the crowd in Vancouver, even as many in the audience were booing the judges' marks. Sure Johnny was unhappy about his marks, and he cried privately backstage, and his team questioned the marks. Later he was very outspoken about his views of why he came in 6th and he mentioned that U.S. officials had admitted to him that they "hadn't pulled for him politically because they hadn't expected him to perform well." Obviously, it's not unheard of in fs for two competitors from the same country to make the medal podium at an Olympics (e.g., Yags and Plushy in 2002), however Johnny is correct in saying that kind of outcome "isn't something that is sought after by the judges." And it certainly is unlikely to happen if your own federation is pulling for your countryman but not for you.

    Let's not forget that Jeremy Abbott came in as U.S. champion and was expected to at least place among the top 5 competitors, and maybe even win gold himself if he performed as well as he had done at U.S. Nationals. So you have three strong Americans coming in as current and former U.S. champions (with two of them former World bronze medalists and one of them the current World champion) and of course the U.S. federation was basically mainly pulling for Evan.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkLqsEr0OLM Johnny comments post-2010 Olympics


    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Maybe that's because neither poster that you referred to said that Johnny was "incessantly" complaining. Mossop asked if Evan was "incessantly" complaining, and gkelly didn't use the word "incessantly" at all.

    And maybe other posters are incessantly looking for excuses to argue that their view of Johnny is the only correct one.
    Peanuts, apples and oranges ... butt, in any case, mossop's query re Evan most definitely is an implication that Johnny "incessantly" complains, unlike OGM, Evan Lysacek. And while gkelly did not mention the word "incessantly," gkelly did mention the word "complain," definitely inferring that Johnny is a complainer, as well as someone who doesn't "make an effort to earn points."

    Far from aftershocks "incessantly looking for excuses to argue that" my view of anything is the more "correct" one, my referenced posts are certainly one view belonging to aftershocks' ego. Not unlike Johnny, you either get it or you don't, and none of this back-and-forth matters in the least. But forward ho ... the tediously entertaining and unending misadventures of Johnny's OTT detractors and misinterpreted "excuse-makers," and sundry other innocent bystanders.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 11-08-2012 at 05:57 PM.

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