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  1. #221
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    But why should the host feds' interests be more significant than anything else? The goal is a top-notch international series, right? Personally, I think the hosts were given waaaaaaaay too much power wrt alternate selection this season. Come on, Mirai got passed over four times in deference to basically everyone in the bottom 5 at TEB? That should never have been allowed!

    There needs to be some kind of reform.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    I'm against that idea. The refusal to give Osmond the second spot is kind of a penality to SC's excessive home favoritism. The ISU shoudn't encourage such acts. As far as GP series are concerned, the host federation's interest is above indivisual skaters. The current conducts/rules need no change.
    Yeah really? It's international judges who were grading her, not a Canadian panel. What are you talking about?

    And, IMHO they underscored her on TES.
    Her 3/3 in the short probably met every criteria for a GOE of +3 and only a few judges gave her 2.
    Her 2A came out of footwork and had a feature on a landing and was high with a flowing edge landing. She got +1. Don't agree
    She got an edge call on a 3F which is new for her so she took a hit there.
    Her GOE could have been higher on some of her LP elements

    I don't see evidence anyone was doing her any favors. She could have easily been another 5 points higher overall just on TES at a bare minimum.

    She was undermarked in PCS in the SP, so brace yourself, you'll see 7.5s in her next international if she skates that same short. Might want to get a head start thinking about whom you want to blame for that when the time comes.

    So yeah even if you separate her by a few pts from Suzuki in the LP on PCS on my card she still wins.

  3. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by danafan View Post
    They really need to make a rule that if a skater/team with only one assignment wins their first grand prix event that they move up to the top of the alternate list immediately.

    Or go back to 12 entries per grand prix in which case a skater like Osmond might have been given two spots immediately based on her season best ranking, but that's the topic for another day...
    Osmond was ranked #41 on the 2011-2012 Seasons Best ranking. That would certainly not have guaranteed her two spots in the 2012 GP, even with 12 skaters in each event. With 12 spots, each federation has host picks and the seeded skaters (5), then two from the top 12 at Worlds (2); then 3 from the top 24 on the WR and SB lists that were not top 10 at Worlds plus the 2011-2012 JGPF and JW medalists. That leaves 2 spots for those in the top 75 on the SB list. Assuming that Skate Canada would have chosen Osmond for SC, there is no guarantee that any of the other 5 hosts would have chosen Osmond. At the time the original choices were made, Osmond's major international achievement was finishing 10th at JW. It is more likely that Lacoste would have gotten two, as the Canadian champion.

    And moving a one-event skater who won his/her first event to the top of the alternate list wouldn't guarantee selection. Nagasu was at the top of the alternate list from the beginning and didn't get a second event until NHK. Even if Osmond had been ranked ahead of Nagasu on the alternate list, NHK could have chosen Nagasu anyway.
    Last edited by euterpe; 11-19-2012 at 04:13 PM.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock2 View Post
    Yeah really? It's international judges who were grading her, not a Canadian panel. What are you talking about?
    Evidence of favoritism is everywhere. Only blind Canadians can't see. Osmond's PCS is just outrageous. I can't imagine historical precedences to give 27+ PCS for a literally junior level skater who has no remarkable records even in the junior ranks. Furthermore, Osmond skated #1 on the skating order. Under normal circumstances, the judges don't give generous scores to lower ranked skaters even if they skated cleanly. That is still evident in GP events (staring order is decided by WS). Only some "special" Canadian skaters who skated in Canada could have such "special" treatments.

    And you know, those judges at GP events are invited by host federations. They are expected to do some favors for home skaters. Not mandatory though, just they has sufficient reasons (=pressure) to boost some "special" skaters.

    FYI, a comparison with world jr champion Murakami's PCS (SP) at 2010 NHK trophy.

    Murakami 26.29 6.61 6.18 6.79 6.61 6.68
    Osmond 27.35 6.68 6.61 6.96 6.86 7.07
    Last edited by NMURA; 11-19-2012 at 04:57 PM.

  5. #225

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    Evidence of favoritism is everywhere. Only blind Canadians can't see. Osmond's PCS is just outrageous. I can't imagine historical precedences to give 27+ PCS for a literally junior level skater who has no remarkable records even in the junior ranks. Furthermore, Osmond skated #1 on the skating order. Under normal circumstances, the judges don't give generous scores to lower ranked skaters even if they skated cleanly. That is still evident in GP events (staring order is decided by WS). Only some "special" Canadian skaters who skated in Canada could have such "special" treatments.

    And you know, those judges at GP events are invited by host federations. They are expected to do some favors for home skaters. Not mandatory though, just they has sufficient reasons (=pressure) to boost some "special" skaters.
    I have not seen enough of Skate Canada to seriously comment about Osmond's skating or scores. However, while I imagine that skating in Canada was to her advantage, the bolded part is not evidence that the judges did their job improperly; rather the opposite, actually, since the scoring should reflect the quality of the skate and not the skater's position in the skating order.

  6. #226
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    Osmond, hit that short program. I don't know who could complain about those scores. Long Program was a different story though.

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    Evidence of favoritism is everywhere. Only blind Canadians can't see. Osmond's PCS is just outrageous. I can't imagine historical precedences to give 27+ PCS for a literally junior level skater who has no remarkable records even in the junior ranks. Furthermore, Osmond skated #1 on the skating order. Under normal circumstances, the judges don't give generous scores to lower ranked skaters even if they skated cleanly. That is still evident in GP events (staring order is decided by WS). Only some "special" Canadian skaters who skated in Canada could have such "special" treatments.
    and she scored higher than Liza in PCS, Murakami and Tuk were underscored
    I don't really have anything against Osmond but what the judges gave her on PCS was outrageous

    anyways I don't think any replacement is possible now
    NHK is just 4 days away

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    Evidence of favoritism is everywhere. Only blind Canadians can't see. Osmond's PCS is just outrageous. I can't imagine historical precedences to give 27+ PCS for a literally junior level skater who has no remarkable records even in the junior ranks. Furthermore, Osmond skated #1 on the skating order. Under normal circumstances, the judges don't give generous scores to lower ranked skaters even if they skated cleanly. That is still evident in GP events (staring order is decided by WS). Only some "special" Canadian skaters who skated in Canada could have such "special" treatments.

    And you know, those judges at GP events are invited by host federations. They are expected to do some favors for home skaters. Not mandatory though, just they has sufficient reasons (=pressure) to boost some "special" skaters.

    FYI, a comparison with world jr champion Murakami's PCS (SP) at 2010 NHK trophy.

    Murakami 26.29 6.61 6.18 6.79 6.61 6.68
    Osmond 27.35 6.68 6.61 6.96 6.86 7.07
    Just WTF are you talking about? Different skaters, different programs, different competitions, different years, and you are comparing Murakami's scores from 2010 NHK trophy to Osmond's 2012 SC scores because???? Are you trying to suggest that debuting senior skaters are only allowed to score within some sort of corridor??

    And too bad Osmond is not getting the GP, but oh well. It's not the end of the world. And the current rules suck. There's too much conflict of interests between the hosting federations and the individual skaters. They need to change that for the future.
    Last edited by shine; 11-19-2012 at 10:01 PM.

  9. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    There's too much conflict of interests between the hosting federations and the individual skaters. They need to change that for the future.
    Change that how? It stands to reason that the host federation has the choice of replacement. It is, after all, their event.

    How exactly would you 'change' it?

  10. #230

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    Here's an interesting comparison.

    Elizaveta Tuktamysheva made her senior debut at Skate Canada 2011. This was after an impressive 2010-2011 season where she won two gold medals in the JGP, and won silver at the JGPF and JW.

    Osmond had just one international competition in the 2011-2012 season: 2012 JW, where she finished 10th.

    Here's how each scored at Skate Canada in their respective debuts:

    SHORT PROGRAM
    60.56 33.21 27.35 6.68 6.61 6.96 6.86 7.07 0.00 3t+3t, 3f, 2a OSMOND, SC 2012
    59.57 33.95 25.62 6.46 5.96 6.68 6.43 6.50 0.00 3z+3t, 3lo, 2a TUKTAMYSHEVA, SC 2011

    FREE SKATE
    117.81 64.21 53.60 6.89 6.21 7.00 6.86 6.54 0.00 3z+3t, 3z, 3f, 2a+2t, 3lo, 3s+2t+2lo, 2a TUKTAMYSHEVA, SC 2011
    115.89 57.28 59.61 7.32 7.25 7.61 7.46 7.61 1.00 3fe+2t, 3ze↓, 2a+3t, 3s, 3f, 3t-so, 2a+2t+2t OSMOND, FS SC 2012

    A program with just 3 clean triples and a fall gets a PCS score 6 points higher than a program with 6 clean triples?????
    Last edited by euterpe; 11-19-2012 at 07:30 PM.

  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe View Post
    Change that how? It stands to reason that the host federation has the choice of replacement. It is, after all, their event.
    It's the ISU's event, or at least it should be. It's not the French Invitational or the Japan Invitational. It's an ISU Grand Prix event and THEY should be in charge of which skaters participate. The host federations have the luxury of picking the host picks, and that should be enough.

  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe View Post

    And moving a one-event skater who won his/her first event to the top of the alternate list wouldn't guarantee selection. Nagasu was at the top of the alternate list from the beginning and didn't get a second event until NHK. Even if Osmond had been ranked ahead of Nagasu on the alternate list, NHK could have chosen Nagasu anyway.
    It does where the "split couples" and "returning split couples" category concerned in Pairs and Dance, so it is entirely possible to give an entire category of skaters precedence.

    The GP Announcement says that Top 24 SB skaters with one are to be selected in the order of ranking, but the ISU hasn't enforced that, or Nagasu would have been chosen earlier, as the only skater above her in precedence is Czisny.

    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    Evidence of favoritism is everywhere. Only blind Canadians can't see. Osmond's PCS is just outrageous. I can't imagine historical precedences to give 27+ PCS for a literally junior level skater who has no remarkable records even in the junior ranks.
    Ah, so skaters should only receive what they have in the past, regardless of changes in judges' training and marking clarifications from season to seaon. Now I understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe View Post
    Change that how? It stands to reason that the host federation has the choice of replacement. It is, after all, their event.

    How exactly would you 'change' it?
    One way to change it is to dump groups and enforce the order of replacements, aside from host picks, in the same way they enforce the initial selection process, unless the next skater on the ordered list:
    1. Is already assigned to the event
    2. Would be the fourth from that country
    3. Declines a back-to-back event of more than a predefined amount of travel time/time zone change, in which case the skater would be next in line formthe next opening
    4. The host country turns down a visa request

    Another is to retain groups, but not move anyone new into the group, until the entire group is selected, unless there's a rules conflict. The groups could be limited to three, like the 1-3, 4-6, etc. groups in the initial selection, and/or they could assign spaces one category at a time and not go to the next until that category is empty, etc.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 11-19-2012 at 07:10 PM.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    I'm against that idea. The refusal to give Osmond the second spot is kind of a penality to SC's excessive home favoritism.
    What a crock...
    Haunting the Princess of Pink since 20/07/11...

  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by stjeaskategym View Post
    It's the ISU's event, or at least it should be. It's not the French Invitational or the Japan Invitational. It's an ISU Grand Prix event and THEY should be in charge of which skaters participate. The host federations have the luxury of picking the host picks, and that should be enough.
    Especially when their reasoning for GP minimums and reducing the fields is that the GP should showcase the "best of the best" and they allow the Feds to dilute the fields through the alternates process.

    (I realize that the other reasons for cutting the fields are to lower the costs of hosting and to compress the schedule.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Really View Post
    What a crock...
    And, to mention for the 348654334th time, Osmond was one of five choices the Japanese Fed had as an alternate, and the least likely choice based on tactical reasons.

    The Japanese Fed chose no one, and since Lafuente was in the alternates group, I wonder what punitive message they meant to send to the Spanish Federation.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 11-19-2012 at 07:39 PM.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  15. #235
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    I know that this thread is not in the Board Business forum, but how do I change my user title to:

    Osmond is the new Chan ?
    It's official. I am madly in love with Meryl Davis.

  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    I know that this thread is not in the Board Business forum, but how do I change my user title to:

    Osmond is the new Chan ?
    I know. Seriously

    I won't wade into the right or wrong scores debate, but what's so hard to believe about Osmond's skating dramatically improving since last year? Compared to her JW performance, she's a totally different skater this year.

    Kaetlyn's skating has become reminiscent of Ashley Wagner's skating in many ways, IMO. Lots of attack, spring, poise and choreography.

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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe View Post

    A program with just 3 clean triples and a fall gets a PCS score 6 points higher than a program with 6 clean triples?????
    I forgot that part in CoP where technical content is required to be reflected in PCS, and a fall should mean a -5 in each PCS across the board.

    When you evaluate the actual bullet points of each of the PCS components, it must be a Chan-like misrepresentation that a skater who used the entire rink, had speed and power and multi-directional skating and who projected to the judges and the audience would get rewarded in PCS vs. a skater who had neither speed nor power, who tends towards the Kozuka end of the looking-at-the-ice spectrum, and who skated between the blue lines and said in interviews last season that ice coverage and speed were things she needed to work on in the future, but the focus last season was transitioning to seniors.

    All of that maple syrup at the judges' breakfast must have gone to their heads.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  18. #238
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    It was probably cough syrup the judges had for breakfast!!!!!

  19. #239
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    Yeah, they managed to reward different things in different skaters. They must have needed drugs for that.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blair View Post
    I know. Seriously

    Kaetlyn's skating has become reminiscent of Ashley Wagner's skating in many ways, IMO. Lots of attack, spring, poise and choreography.
    Except Wagner has shown time and again that she can deliver a clean FS, something Osmond hasn't been able to do.

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