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  1. #481

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarieM View Post
    And here is what I told you : the FFSG is never going to release Bruno.
    http://ffsg.org/IMG/pdf/cp_bruno_mas..._savchenko.pdf
    Wouldn't it be fun if the german fed refused to release Savchenko until after the next Olympics

  2. #482

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarieM View Post
    And here is what I told you : the FFSG is never going to release Bruno.
    http://ffsg.org/IMG/pdf/cp_bruno_mas..._savchenko.pdf
    And they're also very rude to post about it in a communication that can't be Google-translated

    It's time for the ISU to step in and set up a mechanism for skaters to change federations, with both minimum and maximum times that they can be kept out of competition. If you're running a sport where athletes can only compete via federations and not independently, at least find a way to protect their rights and interests.

    Obviously, it'll never happen - unless maybe someone takes the matter to CAS, which will be career suicide.

  3. #483

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    Here is the whole text.
    La fédération française des Sports de Glace a lu avec intérêt les commentaires des différents acteurs censés permettre à B.MASSOT, jeune et talentueux athlète de l'équipe de France de patinage par couple, de s'exprimer avec la grande championne Allemande Melle Aliona SAVCHENKO.

    La FFSG tient à préciser plusieurs points :
    1. La décision de laisser se former puis de se préparer de ce couple durant ces quelques mois n'a pas été exclusivement décidée par I.STEUEUR mais par l'ensemble des acteurs concernés incluant les deux athlètes et, du côté français, le précédent entraîneur de B.MASSOT , M.JF.BALLESTER et la FFSG.
    2. La FFSG ne voit pas en quoi la participation du couple A.SAVCHENKO/B.MASSOT à des compétitions internationales, pour un pays ou pour un autre, serait liée à un quelconque différend financier, entre l'état Allemand et l’excellent entraîneur du couple, M.I.STEUEUR.
    3. La jeunesse de B. MASSOT constituant un atout important à cette association, si elle s'avérait impossible pour des raisons extra-sportives, la FFSG, conformément à sa politique de transferts internationaux [("release")], n'aurait pas l'intention de le laisser concourir pour l'Allemagne. Elle conserverait, en son sein, un sportif d'avenir dont le monde du patinage connait bien le réel potentiel.

    Dans cette attente, qui se veut constructive et amicale avec la Fédération Allemande, comme évoquée entre les deux entités à l'occasion du congrès de la Fédération Internationale de Patinage (ISU) de Dublin le 13 juin 2014, la FFSG restera donc attentive au déroulement de cet ambitieux projet à dimension Européenne.

    I hope someone can take the time to translate this shitty thing with all the underthings in it.
    poths Void: MarieM carries a rusty old blade in her handbag!

  4. #484

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post

    Obviously, it'll never happen - unless maybe someone takes the matter to CAS, which will be career suicide.
    Why would it be career suicide?

  5. #485

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    Google translation:

    The French Federation of Ice Sports has read with interest the comments of various stakeholders who are supposed to allow B.MASSOT young and talented athlete team of France pair skating, to speak with the great German champion Aliona Melle SAVCHENKO . FFSG The wishes to clarify several points:
    1. The decision to train and prepare for this couple during these months was not exclusively determined by I.STEUEUR but by all stakeholders including both athletes and the French side, the previous coach B.MASSOT, M.JF.BALLESTER and FFSG.
    2. The FFSG not see how participation A.SAVCHENKO / torque B.MASSOT in international competitions for a country or another, would be linked to any financial dispute between the German state and excellent coach couple MISTEUEUR.
    3. Youth B. MASSOT a major asset to the association, if it proved impossible for non-sporting reasons, FFSG accordance with its policy of international transfers [("release")], would not the intention of letting compete for Germany. Retain it, within it, a future in which the skating world knows the real potential athlete. Pending this, which is intended to be constructive and friendly with the German Federation, as discussed between the two entities at the congress the International Skating Union (ISU) in Dublin 13 June 2014, the FFSG will remain attentive to the progress of this ambitious project European dimension.

  6. #486

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    So what is this really saying--that the French fed will not release Massot, meaning the team's only hope is to skate for France?

  7. #487

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    Yup but the whole thing is really ... how should I say, full of sh*te ? This thing is there to say "NE-VER" in a "diplomatic" sort of way.
    poths Void: MarieM carries a rusty old blade in her handbag!

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by clairecloutier View Post
    So what is this really saying--that the French fed will not release Massot, meaning the team's only hope is to skate for France?
    That's my reading - We're happy enough to support this pairing and quite like the idea but only if they skate for France and we're not too happy to see a sudden linking of Steur's status with the German Fed to decisions about who this pair will skate for...

    Maybe a suggestion that the support offered by the FFSG (item 1) was based on the suggestion that said couple would skate for France, so the sudden introduction of the issue of Steur's status with the German Fed(item 2) has the potential to back track a "deal". In which case we wont be playing ball and will not release Massot to skate for Germany against our teams (item3).

    ... And maybe we're making this statement now to force the position and make sure you understand now that we are in charge and will not let Steur take the glory for this team if it happens and if he tries to mess with us we will make sure the team does not happen.

    Of course, possibly there is no double speak at all and I just have an over active imagination!

  9. #489

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    I believe that this statement is the most appreciation the FFSG has ever shown Massot. He must be so proud

  10. #490

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    mella that's it, that's even worse than that IMO. It's like : we agreed they'll skate for France, we will not accept anything else. That's what is there under all this thing.
    poths Void: MarieM carries a rusty old blade in her handbag!

  11. #491

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    Another example showing that athletes need to take back their sport. It's time to end up the release bs. Skaters are not slaves that need to be released by their master. The ISU should have a 1 year rule for changing countriesand that's it.

  12. #492

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    And why not share the medals between the countries in pairs and ice dance for example ? It would give more skaters opportunities !
    poths Void: MarieM carries a rusty old blade in her handbag!

  13. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by kirkbiggestfan View Post
    Another example showing that athletes need to take back their sport. It's time to end up the release bs. Skaters are not slaves that need to be released by their master. The ISU should have a 1 year rule for changing countriesand that's it.
    To what extent has FFSG funded Massot over the last cycle as the no2 pair? Are we likely to be talking €100s, €1000s, €10,000s? It's difficult for the ISU to govern this I think ((OMG I can't believe I'm actually defending ISU).

    Some Feds pay heavily to subsidise their atheletes in which case it's not unreasonable for them to expect to be the ones to benefit from that return. On the flip side where the athelete and their family carry the burden it's wrong for the Fed to be able to hold them and hold back their career. The nearest comparison I can think of outside skating using a "normal" profession is that if I did major training like a degree or something and my company supported that by paying the fees or giving me day release for study or something, they would seek to tie me into ongoing employment for a certain period once I completed the course to ensure they got their return.

    The problem with governing skating changes is the lack of consistency in how funding is dealt with, even within the countries. If P/M were funded over the last year and more by FFSG then the Fed has a right to feel that their investment shouldn't go off to benefit someone else. But maybe there should be an option to pay back the funding you've taken to get your release quickly - that would be the flip side in the commercial world, to repay the expense on a pro rata basis if you want to walk away.

    Brian said in an interview recently he funded himself last season - so in theory why shouldnt he be able to get a quick release (if he wanted it). BUT I would lay odds that FFSG has invested far more in him in the last 15 years than the ever have or will in Massot... So where do you draw the line for governing skaters changing Feds? I think this is a difficult one for ISU. And if they try to impose rules could it have the backlash of Feds offering less financial support that some do even now?

    Quote Originally Posted by sandra_persch View Post
    Wouldn't it be fun if the german fed refused to release Savchenko until after the next Olympics
    Did S/S get funding from the German Fed or Sports organisation (excluding the issues with Steur's payment as their coach)? If they did I could understand if Germany didn't want that investment going off to France to beat their teams (potentially).
    Last edited by mella; 07-18-2014 at 01:46 PM.

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarieM View Post
    And why not share the medals between the countries in pairs and ice dance for example ? It would give more skaters opportunities !
    That could be interesting - but who which Fed is responsible then for the pair? I can't see a world in FS where we take the Feds out of the equation...

  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by taz'smum View Post
    Carron/Jones have retired from competitive skating.
    I was surprised to read this - I thought they showed some improvement the last couple of seasons and that they would continue at least for one season if they could get that no 1 spot. I could see that they would retire if they did not.

  16. #496

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    Quote Originally Posted by mella View Post
    Some Feds pay heavily to subsidise their atheletes in which case it's not unreasonable for them to expect to be the ones to benefit from that return. On the flip side where the athelete and their family carry the burden it's wrong for the Fed to be able to hold them and hold back their career. The nearest comparison I can think of outside skating using a "normal" profession is that if I did major training like a degree or something and my company supported that by paying the fees or giving me day release for study or something, they would seek to tie me into ongoing employment for a certain period once I completed the course to ensure they got their return.

    The problem with governing skating changes is the lack of consistency in how funding is dealt with, even within the countries. If P/M were funded over the last year and more by FFSG then the Fed has a right to feel that their investment shouldn't go off to benefit someone else. But maybe there should be an option to pay back the funding you've taken to get your release quickly - that would be the flip side in the commercial world, to repay the expense on a pro rata basis if you want to walk away.

    Brian said in an interview recently he funded himself last season - so in theory why shouldnt he be able to get a quick release (if he wanted it). BUT I would lay odds that FFSG has invested far more in him in the last 15 years than the ever have or will in Massot... So where do you draw the line for governing skaters changing Feds? I think this is a difficult one for ISU. And if they try to impose rules could it have the backlash of Feds offering less financial support that some do even now?
    I'm mainly familiar with American sports. For college sports, athletes transferring to a different university have to sit out one season (IIRC). The original university would have invested money in their training and (presumably) their education, but they also benefit from the income generated by the labors of student-athletes. In professional sports, baseball players rarely make it directly to the Major League Level, but spend several years playing for their organizations' minor league teams. So again, the organizations incur developmental costs. Nonetheless, players can eventually become free agents - in fact, all pro athletes in the US can eventually become free agents and sign with whomever they choose. If a player is released by their team, they have no restrictions at all - and isn't it kind of equivalent when a skater's federation does not have any potential partners for the skater?

    Cyclists can also change teams pretty regularly, but I'm less familiar with how that sport is run.

    Joubert was able to keep training costs low by staying in Poitiers and not working with big-name coaches. But yes, I imagine more money has gone into supporting him than Massot. Of course, he's also made the FFSG more money than Massot has.

  17. #497

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    Quote Originally Posted by mella View Post
    To what extent has FFSG funded Massot over the last cycle as the no2 pair? Are we likely to be talking €100s, €1000s, €10,000s? It's difficult for the ISU to govern this I think ((OMG I can't believe I'm actually defending ISU).

    Some Feds pay heavily to subsidise their atheletes in which case it's not unreasonable for them to expect to be the ones to benefit from that return. On the flip side where the athelete and their family carry the burden it's wrong for the Fed to be able to hold them and hold back their career. The nearest comparison I can think of outside skating using a "normal" profession is that if I did major training like a degree or something and my company supported that by paying the fees or giving me day release for study or something, they would seek to tie me into ongoing employment for a certain period once I completed the course to ensure they got their return.

    The problem with governing skating changes is the lack of consistency in how funding is dealt with, even within the countries. If P/M were funded over the last year and more by FFSG then the Fed has a right to feel that their investment shouldn't go off to benefit someone else. But maybe there should be an option to pay back the funding you've taken to get your release quickly - that would be the flip side in the commercial world, to repay the expense on a pro rata basis if you want to walk away.

    Brian said in an interview recently he funded himself last season - so in theory why shouldnt he be able to get a quick release (if he wanted it). BUT I would lay odds that FFSG has invested far more in him in the last 15 years than the ever have or will in Massot... So where do you draw the line for governing skaters changing Feds? I think this is a difficult one for ISU. And if they try to impose rules could it have the backlash of Feds offering less financial support that some do even now?



    Did S/S get funding from the German Fed or Sports organisation (excluding the issues with Steur's payment as their coach)? If they did I could understand if Germany didn't want that investment going off to France to beat their teams (potentially).
    I agree with this. Depending how much the French Federation invested in Massot. HOWEVER, what I don't like is that the French Federation waited for 4 months until they published this. They waited until Aliona and Ingo invested some serious time and effort to make this pair work. Aliona and Massot paired immediately after worlds in March and from the beginning they claimed that they are not sure which country they would skate for. So it would be fair towards Steuer and Aliona if the French Federation made it clear from the beginning that Massot is available only if he skates for France. Then Aliona would have a choice - either skate with Massot for France, or find a different partner. Whereas it seems that the French Federation waited until four months of work is put in and now they are trying to take advantage. If Aliona now wanted to skate for Germany, she has to find a new partner, so she would practically lose over 4 months (more like 5 because by the time there she would find someone who fits, another month may be lost).

    It would be ironic if Aliona decided that she doesn't let anyone blackmail her, left Massot and he remained partnerless, after he got rid of Popova in such an awful way.

  18. #498

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    They invested in what exactly ? I am still searching for it. And this is bullshit when the FFSG has been ignoring Massot for most of his competitive career like they did with Coia or Blanchard before him.
    It's mostly a god complex here, because they don't do what Didier tells them to, they are not free to go. And I'm not even sure a trade would work.

    Anyway, having a powerfull pair will not help Didier win the ISU, he needs the FFSG as low as possible for that. And Massot is ruining everything.
    poths Void: MarieM carries a rusty old blade in her handbag!

  19. #499

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    It would be ironic if Aliona decided that she doesn't let anyone blackmail her, left Massot and he remained partnerless, after he got rid of Popova in such an awful way.
    Did he? I agree that having a tryout behind her back wasn't the best thing to do - but he's not the first to do that. Presumably Massot would have sat down with Popova after Worlds and ended the partnership in a reasonable manner, but Robin Szolkowy's fiancee took it upon herself to meddle, and that's what created an awful situation, that Popova had to hear about it from someone else.

    Either way, the FFSG once again shows that the skaters' well-being and success are very low on the list of priorities.

  20. #500

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I agree with this. Depending how much the French Federation invested in Massot. HOWEVER, what I don't like is that the French Federation waited for 4 months until they published this. They waited until Aliona and Ingo invested some serious time and effort to make this pair work. Aliona and Massot paired immediately after worlds in March and from the beginning they claimed that they are not sure which country they would skate for. So it would be fair towards Steuer and Aliona if the French Federation made it clear from the beginning that Massot is available only if he skates for France. Then Aliona would have a choice - either skate with Massot for France, or find a different partner. Whereas it seems that the French Federation waited until four months of work is put in and now they are trying to take advantage. If Aliona now wanted to skate for Germany, she has to find a new partner, so she would practically lose over 4 months (more like 5 because by the time there she would find someone who fits, another month may be lost).

    It would be ironic if Aliona decided that she doesn't let anyone blackmail her, left Massot and he remained partnerless, after he got rid of Popova in such an awful way.
    The FFSG communication says the decision for Savchenko/Massot to pair up has been taken from in the beginning with the input of Bruno's former coach in France & the FFSG, so although this has only just been made public, presumably he is well aware that France would not grant an immediate release. In any case, it would have been very naive of Aliona & Ingo to believe that France would have no problem handing off one of their skaters to support someone else's attempt to win an OGM.

    Like mella, I'd be interested to know how much the federation has financially supported Massot so far - he's competed internationally with Popova for three seasons, and had a couple of years on the junior circuit with on of his former partners & as far as I know has done nothing to fall foul of the vagueries of Didier's moods which would result in funding being pulled like Brian's was. It's understandable if a considerable amount of money was spent on him that they wouldn't want to let him go without a fight, but on the other hand it's very tough on him if he has this offer to skate wih a great partner and there isn't anyone else suitable to skate with in France.

    ETA: I think the commission appointed by the German sports ministry is due to rule today on whether Steuer can receive public funding for his work, so then it will become clearer whether Germany is still an option for S/M.
    Last edited by morqet; 07-18-2014 at 02:28 PM.

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