Patrick Chan sees Japan blunders as wake-up call

[misskarne]

Judges rewarding him for having great skating skill, great choreo, great transitions in and out of the jumps, great speed, commanding the ice, the flows...

Great skating skill? Any skater at that level has great skating skills. Great choreo? He doesn't even remotely use the music. Great transitions? His programs look cluttered and ridiculous, I'm fairly sure that's not the point of transitions. Great speed? That he can't control.

Chan is not the god of figure skating. The god of figure falling, maybe.

Dai was a very popular skater. Fans boo because their fave didn't win. And it's very typical and childish act. Cry foul when their fave didn't win.

No, the fans booed because they had just seen a clearly inferior performance come out on top. Fans booed because they didn't understand how Chan could fall on his backside and still be called World Champion.

Skate Canada 2011, I remember it because I was in the audience. He wasn't great, he had 2 falls, but he won by 4-5(?) points, because Dai and Fernendez also made many mistakes. But to the Chan haters, Chan still won with many mistakes, without admitting that OTHERS also made mistakes.

No, Skate Canada 2010, where Chan fell four times across both programs (3 falls in the SP and 1 in the LP IIRC) and still won ahead of a much cleaner Oda and others.

Regardless of mistakes that others made, for him to win that competition was a joke.

[DaveRocks]

For a given jump (say, 3F), there should be NO WAY a fall can score better than other alternatives (two-footed, step-out, rotation, UR, etc, anything that means the landing was upright).

According to you, which, thankfully, is incorrect. You can continue repeating yourself and using CAPS to try to turn myth into truth, but it won't change the rules.

You keep saying it's a joke when Chan wins a competition. Learn the rules.

It's painfully clear you hate Chan for some reason. Please move on. Your incessant rambling is getting tiring.

[spikydurian]

It is obvious based on some posters' past posts (again and again), they will never be happy with whatever outcomes because they just want it THEIR WAY.
If he falls and lose, his falls should be deducted more, if he falls and wins, his falls should be deducted more. Not that marks weren't deducted from his falls ... it's just the outcome weren't what they WANT.

[kwanfan1818]

You do know what P/E is judged on, right?

Not what bek thinks they should be judged on.

Still, Performance/Execution has to be the most unfortunate description in the judging system.

No, that's not what I'm saying. 2T /=/ 4T. But 4T< should be more than 4T fall. Even 4T two-foot should be more than 4T fall.

All thinks being equal -- i.e., all of the bullet points except the landing result in the same GOE start value and the quality of all of the other elements of the jump are the same -- a 4T< (7.2 base) is worth more than a 4T with fall (6.3), when the fall deduction is included.

All things being equal, a 4T with a two-foot (7.3) is worth more than a 4T two-foot (6.3), when the fall deduction is included.

A jump that is under-rotated has a better chance of having a greater start GOE start value than a jump with a fall, because the under-rotation doesn't have to impact the chance to earn the landing bullet point.

[alilou]

^^^^^Thanks for some detail

Could you explain the 2foot thing again. I'm assuming you mean a 4T 2ft (7.3) is worth more than a 4T 2ft with a fall (6.3)

[kwanfan1818]

^^^^^Thanks for some detail

Could you explain the 2foot thing again. I'm assuming you mean a 4T 2ft (7.3) is worth more than a 4T 2ft with a fall (6.3)

I meant to write "is worth more than a 4T with a fall (6.3).". Thanks for the correction.

[alilou]

I meant to write "is worth more than a 4T with a fall (6.3).". Thanks for the correction.

Your welcome

[Aussie Willy]

Great skating skill? Any skater at that level has great skating skills. Great choreo? He doesn't even remotely use the music. Great transitions? His programs look cluttered and ridiculous, I'm fairly sure that's not the point of transitions. Great speed? That he can't control.

Okay why are his components ridiculous?

Any skater would die to have skating skills like Chan. He is the skater's skater. They are some of the best I have ever seen. Effortlessness, fantastic flow and glide, no friction between the ice and the blade, speed, full use of the blade from heel to toe and he can turn on a dime, along with complexity done at incredible speed.

[johndockley92]

Okay why are his components ridiculous?

Any skater would die to have skating skills like Chan. He is the skater's skater. They are some of the best I have ever seen. Effortlessness, fantastic flow and glide, no friction between the ice and the blade, speed, full use of the blade from heel to toe and he can turn on a dime, along with complexity done at incredible speed.

Because then the only component scores of his that should be high are SS and Transitions. ITA his Choreo/ IN are bland.

Falls disrupt the flow of a program, if there are falls it effects the components. Apparently not for Chan though. That's all misskarne was getting at. And yes, IMO falls should always be -3 (unless the skater lands a very good jump and then just slips at the end, in which case a -2 could be given), while UR and 2fts should be -2.

[t.mann]

Although I still think Chan has average musicality (which is made up by his godlike SS & ballet training experience), I think that his PCS at this JO was underscored surprisingly.

[algonquin]

Great skating skill? Any skater at that level has great skating skills.

In a word, no.

[VarBar]

Although I still think Chan has average musicality (which is made up by his godlike SS & ballet training experience), I think that his PCS at this JO was underscored surprisingly.

If I understood you correctly, you think Chan should have scored higher on the PCS than he did, right? Well, he actually scored a bit higher than at last year's JO even though he fell 4 times at this Japan Open, didn't have any jump combination in his program at all as opposed to two cleanly landed jump combos last year of which one was a 4T/3T, he doubled the 3F and singled the 2A. All in all, I do think Chan can be happy with the PC score he got considering.

Because then the only component scores of his that should be high are SS and Transitions. ITA his Choreo/ IN are bland.

Okay but please try to keep in mind that what's true for some is not true for others. I for one never found Chan bland or boring.

[t.mann]

If I understood you correctly, you think Chan should have scored higher on the PCS than he did, right? Well, he actually scored a bit higher than at last year's JO even though he fell 4 times at this Japan Open, didn't have any jump combination in his program at all as opposed to two cleanly landed jump combos last year of which one was a 4T/3T, he doubled the 3F and singled the 2A. All in all, I do think Chan can be happy with the PC score he got considering.

somewhat underscored when compare with other skaters, not last year's result.


[TSS] TES - PCS┃SS - TR - PE - CH - IN

1 TAKAHASHI [172.06] 81.00 - 91.06┃9.11 - 8.71 - 9.21 - 9.25 - 9.25
2 KOZUKA [165.08] 83.06 - 83.02┃8.54 - 8.18 - 8.32 - 8.29 - 8.18
3 BUTTLE [160.86] 72.66 - 88.20┃8.71 - 8.64 - 8.86 - 8.89 - 9.00
4 PLUSHENKO [156.21] 71.63 - 85.58┃8.75 - 7.96 - 8.68 - 8.54 - 8.86
5 BREZINA [151.53] 71.45 - 80.08┃8.25 - 7.61 - 8.07 - 8.00 - 8.11
6 CHAN [137.42] 57.00 - 84.42┃8.61 - 8.57 - 8.07 - 8.57 - 8.39

[LilJen]

I agree. If all of the problems can be dealt with, I feel that Chan might acheive something of note in the sport.

<snort> "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to PeterG again."

[spikydurian]

This

This has very little to do with whose coach is a softy and whose is a drill major. That can I'm sure make some difference but it's more about the inner athlete - the internal drive, the internal assessment of self, and so forth. I'm glad Patrick sees this as a wake-up call - I hope he has another whole level to show us, but more importantly to show himself. Because it's more between Patrick and himself now than anything or anyone else.

and this ..

Seems he is still struggling to find the right balance. A kick in the butt can be a good thing but maybe not as hard as Christy kicked (because didn't we find out later last season he was miserable and contemplating quitting?). I hope he finds the right balance he needs.

IMO is what Patrick is going through right now. He is by nature an easy going lad, and he needs to find the intrinsic drive and motivation to want to continue. I don't know his personal circumstances but sometimes in life, we go through phases and bumps where we re-evaluate our priorities given present circumstances.

[Marco]

But he stood up. And he did stick the landing - on 2 feet, yes, but he stood up. Yes it was UR. But he stood up. He should NOT be punished for standing up worse than a fall! No jump should ever score MORE for falling than for standing up.

Chan will just keep zamboni-ing the ice, and the judges will keep rewarding him for it, and then doubtless people will continue to complain when fans boo the results. It's a joke.

The logic here appears to be very flawed.

If Brown's 3axel was not UR-ed and all he did was land the jump on 2 feet (i.e. not just having free foot brush the ice), he would probably have -2s or some -3s and would have scored more than Chan did with a fall on a fully rotated 3axel (straight -3s). The 2 footing mistake itself is not more harshly punished than a fall. It's the UR that affected the base value.

If you have a problem with how the current system punishes mistakes, you need to keep in mind that the rules apply uniformly to everyone, not just preferentially to benefit Chan.

For a given jump (say, 3F), there should be NO WAY a fall can score better than other alternatives (two-footed, step-out, rotation, UR, etc, anything that means the landing was upright).

From experience, most non falls that get -3s across the board are those that have more than 1 mistake at the same time (i.e. heavy two footed and stepped out, edge call and hand down with weight shift, etc).

The thing about UR is that it fundamentally changes the merit / difficulty (hence value) of the jump and thus cannot be compared with other mistakes. If you would just understand this part, you would realize that a fall on a rotated jump is worth more than a fall on a UR-ed jump, but a hand down or a lesser mistake on a rotated jump is worth more than a fall on the same rotated jump.

Great skating skill? Any skater at that level has great skating skills. Great choreo? He doesn't even remotely use the music. Great transitions? His programs look cluttered and ridiculous, I'm fairly sure that's not the point of transitions. Great speed? That he can't control.

Chan is not the god of figure skating. The god of figure falling, maybe.

Hmm. Perhaps you are not worth a rational discussion afterall.

[Marco]

The scoring system, created by coaches/tech specialists apparently think UR is worse than a fall on a fully-rotated jump. But what do they know?

And I am glad they do because otherwise you will have skaters being forced to rotate "triples" before they are ready. Remember the Olympic Ladies Champion from Salt Lake City?

To me anyways, URs signify bad technique, quality or control much more than falls do. Being able to reduce base values of UR-ed jumps is the single best idea under COP.

[Marco]

Because then the only component scores of his that should be high are SS and Transitions. ITA his Choreo/ IN are bland.

Falls disrupt the flow of a program, if there are falls it effects the components.

Here: http://www.youtube.com/user/germann1968/videos?view=0

This user has the official ISU video explanations about what each program component means.

Apparently not for Chan though.

Compare his PCS from last season to those he got at this competition.

I think many people do not (or refuses to) understand that Chan is just a skater who happens to fit a lot of criteria for PCS and therefore receives high PCS when he skates reasonably well. He gets lower PCS when he makes mistakes (which he should), but overall the PCS is still justifiably quite high when he makes mistakes because his starting level is high.

Forget about Chan. If skater ABC is so out of this world fantastic that he deserves a 10 for each program component, but makes a mistake or two, do you think a 9.5 for each component is still warranted? Or 9.25? It's a clear reduction, but it's still very strong PCS.

[VarBar]

somewhat underscored when compare with other skaters, not last year's result.


[TSS] TES - PCS┃SS - TR - PE - CH - IN

1 TAKAHASHI [172.06] 81.00 - 91.06┃9.11 - 8.71 - 9.21 - 9.25 - 9.25
2 KOZUKA [165.08] 83.06 - 83.02┃8.54 - 8.18 - 8.32 - 8.29 - 8.18
3 BUTTLE [160.86] 72.66 - 88.20┃8.71 - 8.64 - 8.86 - 8.89 - 9.00
4 PLUSHENKO [156.21] 71.63 - 85.58┃8.75 - 7.96 - 8.68 - 8.54 - 8.86
5 BREZINA [151.53] 71.45 - 80.08┃8.25 - 7.61 - 8.07 - 8.00 - 8.11
6 CHAN [137.42] 57.00 - 84.42┃8.61 - 8.57 - 8.07 - 8.57 - 8.39

Thanks for clarifying. Well maybe Chan wasn't underscored but other skaters got higher scores than they actually deserved. And I'd say it's not Chan who should worry about his PCS but Kozuka or Plushenko. Now seriously, I do think that the absence of a jump combination hurt Patrick's PCS quite a bit in the judges' eyes.

[jettasian]

Great skating skill? Any skater at that level has great skating skills. Great choreo? He doesn't even remotely use the music. Great transitions? His programs look cluttered and ridiculous, I'm fairly sure that's not the point of transitions. Great speed? That he can't control.

Chan is not the god of figure skating. The god of figure falling, maybe.

Your post just shows either you are just ignorant about skating or your hatred toward a skater that blind your judgement.

Chan is known to have one of the best, if not the best, skating skill out there today. Oh he uses his music to skate, or else, his jumps or other movement would not hit the music mark. Yes, he has great transitions through out his programs, very difficult too. He has great control of his speed. Nobody said Chan is a skating God. But people know what a great figure skater he is.

No, the fans booed because they had just seen a clearly inferior performance come out on top. Fans booed because they didn't understand how Chan could fall on his backside and still be called World Champion.

Despite the falls, his 2 quads and 1 axel are enough. He won because others didn't skate well either.

No, Skate Canada 2010, where Chan fell four times across both programs (3 falls in the SP and 1 in the LP IIRC) and still won ahead of a much cleaner Oda and others.

Regardless of mistakes that others made, for him to win that competition was a joke.

Wait, so what do you mean regardless of mistakes that others made? So are you saying only Chan's mistakes are matter, but not the others??