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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    That would -3 after the judges have taken into consideration all other factors of the jump - difficulty of entrance, speed going in, speed of rotation, position in the air etc. These are all bullet points that affect the GOE. Then the judges subtract the three points from whatever GOE they would have given. I've seen many other skaters get -2 on a jump with a fall. Joubert especially springs to mind, some years ago, because I felt at the time as you apparently do misskarne, that he should have been given -3 outright. Then I learned how the rule of -3 for a fall on a jump actually works
    It is obvious that no matter how many times the rule was explained and that examples of other skaters getting -2 or -1 for falls have been cited, only Patrick's is stuck in some people's mind as evidence of unfair judging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fscric View Post
    It is obvious that no matter how many times the rule was explained and that examples of other skaters getting -2 or -1 for falls have been cited, only Patrick's is stuck in some people's mind as evidence of unfair judging.
    Its obvious that a lot of us think its ridiculous that anyone can be competitive against other top skaters when they are falling four times. Its clear that very soon there needs to be Chan rule in terms of multiple falls being more penalized. Some judge gave him a 9.5 for P/E!! 9.5 for a mistake ridden program-its ridiculous and a laughing stock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Its obvious that a lot of us think its ridiculous that anyone can be competitive against other top skaters when they are falling four times. Its clear that very soon there needs to be Chan rule in terms of multiple falls being more penalized. Some judge gave him a 9.5 for P/E!! 9.5 for a mistake ridden program-its ridiculous and a laughing stock.
    You do know what P/E is judged on, right?

    From the USFS website:

    Performance is the involvement of the skater/couple/teams physically, emotionally and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography. Execution is the quality of movement and precision in delivery. This includes harmony of movement in pairs, ice dancing and synchronized skating.

    Criteria:

    Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement
    Carriage (and body alignment - synchronized)
    Style and individuality/personality
    Clarity of movement
    Variety and contrast
    Projection
    [plus some criteria specifically for pairs, ice dance and synchro]
    Perhaps that judge felt that Chan did well on these criteria despite the falls.
    Last edited by overedge; 10-08-2012 at 03:42 AM.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    Thanks, alilou, for the clarification about the -3 vs -2 vs -1 for a fall. I had forgotten about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Its obvious that a lot of us think its ridiculous that anyone can be competitive against other top skaters when they are falling four times. Its clear that very soon there needs to be Chan rule in terms of multiple falls being more penalized. Some judge gave him a 9.5 for P/E!! 9.5 for a mistake ridden program-its ridiculous and a laughing stock.
    Its? its? Its? its?

    Also, how is it Patrick's fault that a judge gave him a 9.5?

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    But that's wrong. It should be flat -3. No other consideration. End of story.

    Jason Brown was given -3 across the board for his two-footed 3A< in the LP at Turkey (I think one judge gave him -2). He had an okay entry, a nice air position, stuck the landing and didn't fall. But apparently, that all means jack, since it was UR. And he got hit worse for it than some of Chan's falls. How is this right?

    It should be flat -3, plus the -1 deduction, and a whack in the P/E mark as well, which NEVER happens to Chan.
    Doesn't matter what you think it should be

    Re Jason Brown - he didn't stick the landing, he 2-footed it. W/out that he probably would have fallen....plus it was under-rotated.
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    How old is Patrick. 20 or 21?

    It must be hard when you're an adult in the eyes of the world, but the team around you possibly treat you like a you're still a teenager. Learning from your mistakes, what you want and don't want, is all part of growing up, I guess.

    My worry though, is that Krall was the key to his jumping success, and as several posters at Golden Skate have mentioned, not having that presence means he may have lost the sense of timing needed to land the bigger jumps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    Re Jason Brown - he didn't stick the landing, he 2-footed it. W/out that he probably would have fallen....plus it was under-rotated.
    But he stood up. And he did stick the landing - on 2 feet, yes, but he stood up. Yes it was UR. But he stood up. He should NOT be punished for standing up worse than a fall! No jump should ever score MORE for falling than for standing up.

    Chan will just keep zamboni-ing the ice, and the judges will keep rewarding him for it, and then doubtless people will continue to complain when fans boo the results. It's a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Its not like the judges have shown him in most cases that landing his jumps are important...
    Did the judges give him the win? So what's your problem? He doesn't need the judges to show him. He knows or else he'd not bother to try any quads.

    Chan just had a poor skate, period! Other than the jumps, everything was fine. So I are not too worry. If by National, he's still struggled with his jumps, then it's time to assess whether his decision to change coach was the right decision.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    No he doesn't get -3 all the time. I've seen his falls given -2 and -1.

    Anyway, why should he NOW only have his "wake-up call"? Oh, because he actually lost when falling on his backside, as he should?
    He lost because he had a poor skate. He won when he had a poor skate because others had poor skates as well. Does skating come down to number of falls count?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    But that's wrong. It should be flat -3. No other consideration. End of story.

    Jason Brown was given -3 across the board for his two-footed 3A< in the LP at Turkey (I think one judge gave him -2). He had an okay entry, a nice air position, stuck the landing and didn't fall. But apparently, that all means jack, since it was UR. And he got hit worse for it than some of Chan's falls. How is this right?

    It should be flat -3, plus the -1 deduction, and a whack in the P/E mark as well, which NEVER happens to Chan.
    Because most of Chan's fall, he still managed to FULLY ROTATE his jumps.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Its obvious that a lot of us think its ridiculous that anyone can be competitive against other top skaters when they are falling four times. Its clear that very soon there needs to be Chan rule in terms of multiple falls being more penalized. Some judge gave him a 9.5 for P/E!! 9.5 for a mistake ridden program-its ridiculous and a laughing stock.
    Did Chan even fall 4 times last season or his fall counts are accumulative?

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    No jump should ever score MORE for falling than for standing up.
    So a fully rotated quad with a fall shouldn't score more that a properly landed double toe? Is that what you're saying?

    It used to be different, but then all the guys stopped trying quads because it wasn't worth the risk.

    So people (Most vocally Plushenko) complained how the sport was going backwards and no-one should win without a quad.

    So they changed the rules to encourage the skaters to take the risk.

    Now there's complaints again like yours that the rules should be tougher.

    Round and round the mulberry bush we go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    He lost because he had a poor skate. He won when he had a poor skate because others had poor skates as well. Does skating come down to number of falls count?
    In which case, Chan would always lose.

    No, when he falls he often beats skaters who were better or stayed on their feet. Which is wrong. Skate Canada 2010 anybody? No way should he have even come top 5 with those performances. And yet he won.

    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    Because most of Chan's fall, he still managed to FULLY ROTATE his jumps.
    But he still fell, which is the worst outcome for a jump, far worse than UR.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Chan will just keep zamboni-ing the ice, and the judges will keep rewarding him for it, and then doubtless people will continue to complain when fans boo the results. It's a joke.
    Judges rewarding him for having great skating skill, great choreo, great transitions in and out of the jumps, great speed, commanding the ice, the flows...

    Dai was a very popular skater. Fans boo because their fave didn't win. And it's very typical and childish act. Cry foul when their fave didn't win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post


    But he still fell, which is the worst outcome for a jump, far worse than UR.
    Apparently only you think so.

    The scoring system, created by coaches/tech specialists apparently think UR is worse than a fall on a fully-rotated jump. But what do they know?
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    In which case, Chan would always lose.

    No, when he falls he often beats skaters who were better or stayed on their feet. Which is wrong. Skate Canada 2010 anybody? No way should he have even come top 5 with those performances. And yet he won.

    But he still fell, which is the worst outcome for a jump, far worse than UR.
    Skate Canada 2011, I remember it because I was in the audience. He wasn't great, he had 2 falls, but he won by 4-5(?) points, because Dai and Fernendez also made many mistakes. But to the Chan haters, Chan still won with many mistakes, without admitting that OTHERS also made mistakes.

    A fully rotated fall is better an UR jump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    So a fully rotated quad with a fall shouldn't score more that a properly landed double toe? Is that what you're saying?
    No, that's not what I'm saying. 2T /=/ 4T. But 4T< should be more than 4T fall. Even 4T two-foot should be more than 4T fall.

    For a given jump (say, 3F), there should be NO WAY a fall can score better than other alternatives (two-footed, step-out, rotation, UR, etc, anything that means the landing was upright).

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    It's not like it's the first year that Chan starts with multiple falls. His Free program is very good, and Patrick is expressive in it. If he wanted to work on his artistic side, he is doing it, and quite successfully. I imagine he'll be balancing the new choreo with the jumps as the year progresses, and unease is premature.
    improving my ballad- like lines

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    No, that's not what I'm saying. 2T /=/ 4T. But 4T< should be more than 4T fall. Even 4T two-foot should be more than 4T fall.

    For a given jump (say, 3F), there should be NO WAY a fall can score better than other alternatives (two-footed, step-out, rotation, UR, etc, anything that means the landing was upright).
    There are also other factors, such as difficult entrance, transition in/out of jump. You do know that right?

    As Kurt Browning said, most skaters would just skate straight before the quad. Chan's quads always have no, or little preparation before it.

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