Patrick Chan sees Japan blunders as wake-up call

[Zemgirl]

Transitions can express the music too.

Of course they can, but sometimes transitions are not the best way to express the music. And when the default is the more transitions the better, that distinction isn't being made.

[aftershocks]

^^ Yes, I think the difference is whether or not the transitions are inserted not just for point-gathering but are put together intuitively and creatively by a great choreographer in collaboration with skater and coach. Probably programs (the choreo and the music) come together better (transitions and all) out on the ice with experimentation and run-throughs to determine how it all will work.

Also, part of whether transitions "express the music" is going to be determined by whether the skater who performs them has a sensitivity to the music.

[Aussie Willy]

Chan invented the fall. Before that no-one else ever ever fell. That is it. History is written.

[aftershocks]

^^ No, falling is part of figure skating. It just is. When you learn how to skate, you learn how to fall. The key is in learning how to not fall too often in competition.

But Chan maybe can take credit after Buttle winning silver at 2005 Worlds for the greatest top level champion skater with most falls per wins.

[museksk8r]

But Chan maybe can take credit after Buttle winning silver at 2005 Worlds for the greatest top level champion skater with most falls per wins.

I don't see anything wrong with Buttle's silver in 2005. That men's event overall was very sloppy. Yes, Buttle fell twice in the LP on two rotated triples, but even the usually steady skaters like Plushenko and Lysacek (though Evan went through a long streak when he was an awful SP skater) had major mistakes in either the SP or LP. Evan doubled two planned triples (a 3Axel and a 3loop) in the LP and had -GOE on a 3Lutz, as well as the two doubled jumps. I believe if it can be argued that anyone on that podium was held up the most, it was Evan. Evgeni fell on a 4toe in the SP and then withdrew before the LP. The presentation of Evan and Evgeni don't hold a candle to Jeffrey, especially not in the year 2005. All of Lambiel, Joubert, and Buttle skated brilliantly in the SP and placed top 3 in that order in that phase, but Brian fell mightily in the LP, placing 13th in that phase, leaving the door open for Jeff to move up. Weir rebounded in the LP, but did not have the difficulty (no quad) nor COP friendliness to recover from a hard fall on a 3Axel in the SP. Sandhu singled a 3Axel in the SP and paid dearly for it; a 3rd place LP was not enough to move him into the medals. Lambiel's presentation was terrific in the LP, but I know he would have loved to have a do-over on a few of those flawed jump attempts.

[spikydurian]

aftershocks, somehow I knew you would react to my post. Love Chan or hate Chan, you just can't ignore him

VarBar, aftershocks do lurv Chan. Where Chan is, aftershocks will be there. AS is one of those you can count on. .

Wow. You people are OLD!!

Ouch... the secret is out, JapanFan.

[aftershocks]

VarBar, aftershocks do lurv Chan. Where Chan is, aftershocks will be there. AS is one of those you can count on. .
...

^^ I beg to differ spikydurian. It's just that because I'm not one of Chan's diehard ubers, anything I can and will say about the wunderkind will always be held against me, even a kind word here and there.

In any case, you must mean, "Wherever Chan is mentioned on FSU, aftershocks may tend to follow, except for idolatrous uber thread." Sometimes aftershocks don't appear at all where Chan is mentioned. And that's a fact. As well, Chan’s impact on the sport has been quite earth-shattering on its own, without my two cent-quakes showing up anywhere near his vicinity.


ETA:

I don't see anything wrong with Buttle's silver in 2005... I believe if it can be argued that anyone on that podium was held up the most, it was Evan. ...

I do see something wrong with Buttle's silver in 2005, but it's not the most controversial result ever in fs. And I thought Buttle was excellent at 2008 Worlds with no falls and a much improved 3-Axel.

Re Evan, ITA.

[Aussie Willy]

^^ No, falling is part of figure skating. It just is. When you learn how to skate, you learn how to fall. The key is in learning how to not fall too often in competition.

Ummm do you realise when people are being sarcastic?

[aftershocks]

Ummm do you realise when people are being sarcastic?

^^ Of course, Aussie Willy. I understood you were being sarcastic mostly, as well as since you appreciate Chan's skating, protective.

Sarcasm: sharp or cutting expression or remark, usually conveyed through irony or understatement.

Pardon me for responding with a bit of seriousness and a bit of flippant truth.

[unicorn]

No, I certainly can't. And they both had the same very difficult transitions into the jumps as Chan does.

Don't like the sarcasm here. Reminds me of Chan's comments about other skaters before the 2010 Olympics. It's like someone in 2002 mocking those skaters in early 90s could only do triples. It showed a lack of logical thinking skills and a proper respect to those predecessors.
You can't deny that skaters nowadays benefit greatly from more modern training methods, and more mature techniques. It's easier for young skaters to learn quads and other stuff now. But these are based on the achivements of all those former skaters. Each person's talent may varied, but still Chan really did not learn all his skills out of nothing.
We can compare 2002 olympics with 1998's, look how much they improved, both choreography and jumps! It's been 10 years now, it is time for young skaters to do more difficult programs and at the same time land beautiful quads. It's just the natural process of developing. And it's just because they are still not good enough, old gun like Plushenko still can compete against them. Look at Stojko, he landed two quads in 2002 oly when he's 29, both in combinations, but just had no any chance to win anything.

[The Accordion]

So - to sum up this thread
Chan fell a bunch of times at an early season competition.

This means one or more of the following:
1/ This is pretty much his usual. The dude falls all the time. Before him skaters didn't really fall - at least not this much - if they were any good.
2/ This is pretty much his usual for early in the season. He always adds difficulty each year and this year there is more to get adjusted to seeing as he has 2 new programs as well as a new choreographer and a new coaching situation
3/ DANGER DANGER! This is the sign of what is to come with Chan's new coaching situation - or lack of coaching situation. Leaving Krall is a disaster and his jumps will be gone. How can he think a dancer can coach him?
4/ Chan's girlfriend is distracting him. If he stopped having a social life - things would get better.
5/ Chan has too many transitions. If he made his program simpler - the jumps would be more do-able.

In addition to sum up the points made

We hate Patrick Chan. Who does he think he is? How dare he get good marks when he falls? It is so annoying that he gets good marks when he falls. I hate falling. I hate when people who fall win - especially if their name is Chan.

But he lost here. He came last.

So what if he lost here because he fell here? That is beside the point. He's won before with falls. Did we mention that skaters shouldn't fall and that it annoys us when fallers (especially those named Chan) get good marks and finish ahead of other people we like?

You do realize that other things get marked in a program besides jumps right?

Yes - but the only thing Chan has that is good in PCS is skating skills - and even those marks should not be high when he falls. If a skater falls several times in the program clearly his skating skills are really terrible. Have we mentioned how bad falling is? Falls make us wrathful! Oh and btw - Chan is not musical at all and he is only made less musical because of all those transitions that he does. Which only make him fall anyhow.

Down with falling! Down with Chan! The soulless, arrogant, person who has single-handedly ruined skating while hypnotizing the judges into a stupour.

That is all. Rant off.

[Really]

[DaveRocks]

What Really said.

[alilou]

What DaveRocks said.

[falling_dance]

What alilou said.

[Japanfan]

I think I read one post here at FSU that Chan might have better artistry than Plushenko. I will search for that one post and if I find it, I will post a link to it.

Well, good luck with that. Finding that one deluded post will be like looking for needle in a haystack.

[Japanfan]

If Chan has difficulty executing his elements because the rest of the program is too difficult, perhaps he should consider fewer/easier transitions as well. It's not as though the only options for a skater are either to have a program with non-stop transitions or to skate something completely empty and void of any meaningful choreography. I'd even argue that sometimes it's better to pay a bit less attention to the TR in order to better express the music.

I do believe the goal is to skate a difficult program clean with clean jumps, lots of transitions, and high level footwork.

Oh, but I forgot: Patrick and his coach or choreographer actually design programs to include multiple falls. Patrick falls on cue in practice and when he does his run-throughs. When he actually does land everything in a program, it's because he forgot to fall.

Patrick's current dream is to win the OGM with a four-fall program and he is secretly meeting with and preparing to figure out just how he is going to do that, points wise, and make sure it happens.

[Zemgirl]

I do believe the goal is to skate a difficult program clean with clean jumps, lots of transitions, and high level footwork.

Oh, but I forgot: Patrick and his coach or choreographer actually design programs to include multiple falls. Patrick falls on cue in practice and when he does his run-throughs. When he actually does land everything in a program, it's because he forgot to fall.

Patrick's current dream is to win the OGM with a four-fall program and he is secretly meeting with and preparing to figure out just how he is going to do that, points wise, and make sure it happens.

You're so brave to expose such a sordid truth!

I think there can be other goals and criteria by which to judge a successful program, and I'm not a fan of the current emphasis on transitions, whether skated by Patrick Chan or by anyone else. To me they are a means of making a program more interesting rather than a goal in and of themselves. But others, of course, are welcome to disagree.

[overedge]

Oh, but I forgot: Patrick and his coach or choreographer actually design programs to include multiple falls. Patrick falls on cue in practice and when he does his run-throughs. When he actually does land everything in a program, it's because he forgot to fall.

Forget McDonalds, his next endorsement will be for these:
http://shoprainbo.com/se-ku-competit...l#.UHkKwq7G_Kc

[kwanfan1818]

And these:
http://www.lifealert.com/