Patrick Chan sees Japan blunders as wake-up call

[professordeb]

Halloween or not. The second week after Patrick won the Russian Cup.
My fuss created, by telling the true story of Patrick and his new coach, is well worth it.
For obviously, my story and its effects had come to the attention of one of the team, and his return to top form is a good reply to the fuss I created.

Your story had no fracking effect on Patrick and his results. Here's some "facts" for ya
1) Patrick always starts out slowly and usually has a rough outing in at least his first and quite often his second comps. Don't believe me, check out some of the topics from last season and you will see a bunch of moaners and groaners saying he shouldn't have won with three/four/more falls.
2) Patrick has not one but TWO new programs and that's new for him so I would expect him to be OK in early comps and get better as time goes on and he gets more comfortable with them
3) he has new people on his team and again, more adjustments. These things take TIME
4) he has decided to put more emphasis on the emoting of his programs and when you are focusing on something that is newer to you, sometimes you focus so much on that area that other areas TEMPORARILY suffer. Notice I said TEMPORARILY.

Patrick will be fine. I have total faith in him that he will, like a fine wine, just get better and better. He knows that the other skaters are upping their content and he's not willing to rest upon his laurels. He hears/read/knows he has areas in which there is room for improvement and he works on them. Back in 2010 he got slammed for not have a quad -- now he usually tries 3 (1 in the short, 2 in the long) with one of those in combination. His triple axel looked fine once again. Since he got the quads, he got slammed for not be "artistic" or "feeling his music" -- so now he's working on that aspect of his skating. If I didn't know any better, I might think you have it out for him. Fans like you who first try to stir up trouble with your earlier posts and are now trying to take credit for his "turn around" make me glad we have this thing called "the ignore feature" -- a list to which I think you might need to be added.

[clarie]

You must spread rep before giving it to Professor Deb again ...............ITA with you. My "ignore" list is growing!!!!

[Emdee]

Trevor - there is no need to shout.

You slammed him by bringing up personal issues on a public board. That is just not done by anyone who purports to be a friend of the family.

All the best in your efforts to popularize the sport in China etc.

[Zemgirl]

Well, obviously. How could a couple of posts made on the 13th (or was it 12th?) page of a thread of an internet forum NOT bring around changes around Patrick Chan and change the course of his season!

I. Don't. Even. Know. Where. To. Start

Start by not feeding the troll? I think that would be good for everyone. Except maybe the troll.

[rayhaneh]

Start by not feeding the troll? I think that would be good for everyone. Except maybe the troll.

Which is exactly why I didn't get started

Great minds think alike and all that jazz

[misskarne]

I have a curious question, and it's not a hate question, it was just something I was thinking about.

When was the last time Patrick skated a full clean international competition (as at CoR)? Worlds 2011?

The whole men's field seems very splatty this year.

(In the meantime, maybe we should all use the report button on trevor instead of ignore?)

[professordeb]

I have a curious question, and it's not a hate question, it was just something I was thinking about.

When was the last time Patrick skated a full clean international competition (as at CoR)? Worlds 2011?

The whole men's field seems very splatty this year.

(In the meantime, maybe we should all use the report button on trevor instead of ignore?)

That's a good question and perhaps you'd like to clarify what you mean by fully clean? The judges may have given a skate a "clean bill of health" but there will be some who don't call it such because he got negative GOE or he downgraded a one or more jumps -- much like he did in the free at CoR. There was at least one poster here who was going on about why did Patrick have such a large margin of victory cause he made mistakes in his free. Well I went and looked at his protocols and there was nothing there that showed he was "dinged" for any mistakes. That being said, his jump content wasn't what he planned, but what he did was clean and I said such to that poster.

Oh, and I like your idea about using the report button. It's not something that I've ever used but perhaps in this case ...

[unicorn]

Who cares if he's clean or not. He proved he could be damn good once again with still lots of room to be even better. It's not necessarily a good thing if someone peaks too early. Like him or not, he will be great. I hope he will continue to compete after 2014. I am not his crazy fan, but I like him, like his determination.

[misskarne]

That's a good question and perhaps you'd like to clarify what you mean by fully clean? The judges may have given a skate a "clean bill of health" but there will be some who don't call it such because he got negative GOE or he downgraded a one or more jumps -- much like he did in the free at CoR. There was at least one poster here who was going on about why did Patrick have such a large margin of victory cause he made mistakes in his free. Well I went and looked at his protocols and there was nothing there that showed he was "dinged" for any mistakes. That being said, his jump content wasn't what he planned, but what he did was clean and I said such to that poster.

Oh, I meant "clean" by "staying on his feet" - as in, an international competition where he didn't fall. By "full" I meant both programs. My brain says 2011 Worlds but I'm not quite sure. I think everyone made pretty major mistakes at CoR.

[alilou]

I think Chan stayed on his feet in both programs at COR. Are you asking about the comps between COR and 2011 worlds? Certainly there was one, and I think probably 2 nationals comps, maybe some others comps later in the season. Can't remember.

[PeterG]

HOW DID i SLAM HIM?
Over here, in China, and as an overseas Canadian,I am trying to popularize the sport of figure skating, which he and his dad agreed once, is also one of their mission.
To see my and your hero in danger of falling into a hole, I can only shout 'watch out' by telling the truth and danger ahead.
To disbelieve in a true story, is alright, you have the privilege.

But the emails I sent to his dad you haven't seen. I had the same danger message repeated, although much more respectful and figuratively put. Although I said I have to say my frank piece, for Patrick intellegience, deserves and understands perfectly what I am aiming at - he is too valuable a talent of the skating world, to go astray or get lost in emotional/mental distractions to the most exact sports in this world. The senior guest commentator, live at the Canadian championship at Windosr, on Chinese national sports network, Yang, said Patrick has the top technique of all male skaters in the world today, just before he fell thrice after his first successful toe-quad in his long program. But he went on to say that Canada has the top quality skating coaches, in enough numbers, to make it the skating power of the world, and that China's change, from a state elite training (closed) college/camp method for national team, to a more westernized commercial mall oriented broad public skating arrangement, the traditional pyramid sectional system, should borrow from the Canadian system, of first sports for the general public, with talented members spotted, and assisted to become elite atheletes for the nation, later. All this is dependant on the economic affluence level of society, for coaches cost a bundle.

I LOEV YOU, ESTA!!!

[Proustable]

Dick Button once commented that judges frown on a program being used for more than one season. I like to rewatch some of my favorite programs on you tube, but I don't care about seeing them in competition for more than one year. Personally, I think it should be disallowed or a mandatory deduction if done.

What about skaters that don't have a full season? I don't care for it, but I don't think there should be a rule disallowing it (after all, how many skaters do basically the same program but to different music?)

[misskarne]

Dick Button once commented that judges frown on a program being used for more than one season. I like to rewatch some of my favorite programs on you tube, but I don't care about seeing them in competition for more than one year. Personally, I think it should be disallowed or a mandatory deduction if done.

I disagree about two seasons. Three seasons or more, absolutely, yikes. But sometimes there are extenuating circumstances. What about someone like Josh Farris, who switched LPs halfway through last season, and thus kept the new one for this season? I think it also depends on the skater - Plushenko kept "The Godfather" for two seasons because he wasn't happy with how he had performed it the first season.

I think Chan stayed on his feet in both programs at COR. Are you asking about the comps between COR and 2011 worlds? Certainly there was one, and I think probably 2 nationals comps, maybe some others comps later in the season. Can't remember.

That was why it struck me to ask, because I couldn't remember for sure the last time before COR that Chan had stayed on his feet in both programs. I'm reasonably sure he stayed up at 2011 Worlds, but I couldn't remember if he had since then.

[jettasian]

Two issues re the latest posted article:

1. Patrick is thinking of keeping these same programs for two seasons! I mean they are both wonderful programs for him to continue to explore in order to continue strengthening his artistic expression, but I would suggest his keeping only one of the programs and changing at least one of the programs for the Olympic season. Not that he's going to follow anyone's suggestions (except perhaps those of Kathy Johnson). Keeping an interesting and well-constructed program is not unusual for skaters, but keeping two programs for two seasons in a row (at least these days) does not tend to happen among top skaters. I wonder how many skaters are contemplating keeping one or both of the programs they have this season for the Olympic season?

I think it's too early to tell. Sure, he mentioned that he's thinking he may keep both programs. But it really depends on how he will skate through out the season. If he skates 2 perfect record breaking programs during World, I don't see him keeping both of them. It's tough to top 2 perfect skates. However, if he doesn't skate up to the programs' potential, then I can see he will decide to keep them as there are more room to improve. Just like POTO.

2. Orser is quoted as saying that Patrick was so much better than everyone else. I don't think that's the case. I think the judges helped give that impression by their over-scoring of PC, particularly at competitions where Patrick made a lot of mistakes. Dai should have won at least a couple of comps over Patrick last season (particularly Worlds 2012). Sure Patrick has superior SS among top competitors, but Orser is also quoted as saying that as a result of Patrick, other guys are now "learning how to skate": I think that statement is a bit OTT too. Sure many admire Chan's deep edges and flow over the ice, and every skater could benefit by doing some figures training, but intimating that Patrick's skills have led to others "learning how to skate" is an insult. The main influence Patrick has had on his competition IMO, is the recognition that quads are absolutely essential if you want to compete for the podium. Patrick mastered quads relatively quickly and he combined them with superior SS, but that doesn't mean that other skaters' SS are so much more subpar.

Orser is correct. Chan IS so much better than everyone else. I am not an expert. But if the judges, and the experts like Wilson and Orser said so, I believe them. The judges don't over-score a skater over and over and over again and again. It's very convenience to say that he's over-scored, he's the judges' pet etc. No, he got high marks because of superior skating skills, transitions, jumps, connections, speed, commanding the ice, difficult choreography, deep edges etc. And he's NOT the only one making a lot of mistakes. Many skaters also do. He won with mistakes NOT because the judges awarded to him, it's because the other skaters also didn't skate well. Look at this year's SC, he lost to Fernandez because Fernandez skated better, period! He won last year's SC with 2 mistakes because Fernandez and Dai also made several mistakes. But people just like to see that he won with mistakes without willing to acknowledge that other skaters didn't skate well. Dai or Hanyu could have won this season's GP if their opponents didn't skate well. If Dai or Hanyu had won, would people say they won with mistakes? No, it seems like it only applies to Chan Dai lost World because he made several mistakes and water-down his LP.

[jettasian]

Dick Button once commented that judges frown on a program being used for more than one season. I like to rewatch some of my favorite programs on you tube, but I don't care about seeing them in competition for more than one year. Personally, I think it should be disallowed or a mandatory deduction if done.

Of course, the rule should change just because it's Chan right? Just like so many arguments from the past about number of falls or other CoP judging that ends up in fave of Chan.

I can already see that if Chan decides to keep the programs for next season and keeps winning, some haters will start whine and moan and complain about "old programs should not be allowed or should have auto deductions" blah blah blah. Afterall, if Chan has mastered the artistry, what else can they whine?

[Japanfan]

Orser is correct. Chan IS so much better than everyone else. I am not an expert. But if the judges, and the experts like Wilson and Orser said so, I believe them. The judges don't over-score a skater over and over and over again and again. It's very convenience to say that he's over-scored, he's the judges' pet etc. No, he got high marks because of superior skating skills, transitions, jumps, connections, speed, commanding the ice, difficult choreography, deep edges etc. And he's NOT the only one making a lot of mistakes. Many skaters also do. He won with mistakes NOT because the judges awarded to him, it's because the other skaters also didn't skate well. Look at this year's SC, he lost to Fernandez because Fernandez skated better, period! He won last year's SC with 2 mistakes because Fernandez and Dai also made several mistakes. But people just like to see that he won with mistakes without willing to acknowledge that other skaters didn't skate well.

While there is some truth in what you say, the judges do sometimes over-score a skater time and time again - or at least, do so in the eyes of some people. Think of all the Russian teams that consistently dominated ice dance for years, with the next top team following behind the current one. Dance results were pretty much a foregone conclusion in those days. All of those teams' placements were defended by some people, but others really found the consistency of the results really questionable.

There are lots of examples of skaters that people consistently perceive as either over-marked or under-marked. For over-marked, I immediately think of Kim at 2010 Worlds. For under-marked I'm reminded of all the PCS wuzrobbed cries about Suzuki and Kozuka.

I do think Chan is the best among the men generally. But he is not the best natural jumper. And while I think most of his wins have been justified, I also think he has the judges' favour. Favour isn't necessarily misplaced and can be seen as no more than a fair acknowledgment. But it does benefit some skaters while others really have to fight for recognition among the judges.

And he lost to Fernadez because he lost so many points on the jumps. There was just no way for the judges to gift him the win.

[/QUOTE] Dai or Hanyu could have won this season's GP if their opponents didn't skate well. If Dai or Hanyu had won, would people say they won with mistakes? No, it seems like it only applies to Chan Dai lost World because he made several mistakes and water-down his LP.[/QUOTE]

Dai tends to be more popular than Patrick generally, although some Patrick doubters seem to be liking him more this season.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Hanyu beat Chan at some point this season. He, too, has the judges favour IMO.

[Marco]

Well yes, having great basics and quality elements does leave a great impression with the judges and that's a huge advantage in judged sports. For Chan and Hanyu anyway, I think their favour from the judges are much more earned on merit than politiked (think Lindemann's bronze at Worlds held in Germany and Gachinski's bronze at Worlds held in Russia).

Since COP was introduced, I think SS (and on a more intangible note, confidence) has become the most important characteristic judges look for in a skater. You have Ando and Joubert consistently scoring high despite nil CH and TR, and then there's Kim's decisive advantage over Asada in the 2010 season.

Obviously, reputation and politics still play a big part, and it still matters whether you are the most accomplished skater from your country (think Suzuki and Kozuka). But the high scores for Chan and Hanyu are a welcomed change and an indication that judges are open to rewarding on merits too.

[kwanfan1818]

I'm sure the German Fed would be pleased to be aware of its politiking superpowers.

Lindemann was killing it in practice in Dortmund, in the qualis, and in the SP, and while his 4T combination in the FS was flawed, so was Lambiel's. Lindemann's overall performance under pressure was one of the finest I've seen live, and he was flying across the ice. I couldn't believe it was the same skater I had seen a few months earlier in Malmo.

[Eyre]

Halloween or not. The second week after Patrick won the Russian Cup.
My fuss created, by telling the true story of Patrick and his new coach, is well worth it.
For obviously, my story and its effects had come to the attention of one of the team, and his return to top form is a good reply to the fuss I created.

HOW DID i SLAM HIM?

You still don't understand that the confidential info you've posted on website didn't do anything but disservice to Patrick Chan. It was the invasion to his private life. If you care so much about him and his talent, write to his dad or do whatever you can to make them understand your concerns but for God's sake don't ever throw your temper tantrum in public and betray his people's trust to you!

[Iceman]

Of course, the rule should change just because it's Chan right? Just like so many arguments from the past about number of falls or other CoP judging that ends up in fave of Chan.

I can already see that if Chan decides to keep the programs for next season and keeps winning, some haters will start whine and moan and complain about "old programs should not be allowed or should have auto deductions" blah blah blah. Afterall, if Chan has mastered the artistry, what else can they whine?

Dick made this statement long before chan appeared on the scene. So there were negative feelings about it pre Chan . My own view has nothing to do with Chan. I just brought it up because someone mentioned Chan might reuse his program next year. As much as I love MIchelle Kwan, I was disappointed she decided to reuse her short (as brilliant as it was) from her first Olympics in her next Olympics.