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  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    If Chan has difficulty executing his elements because the rest of the program is too difficult, perhaps he should consider fewer/easier transitions as well. It's not as though the only options for a skater are either to have a program with non-stop transitions or to skate something completely empty and void of any meaningful choreography. I'd even argue that sometimes it's better to pay a bit less attention to the TR in order to better express the music.
    Chan's programs certainly don't look as if the connecting elements are a burden to him, given his flow, glide and speed throughout.

    Although lack of empty spots might mean lack of time to focus/regroup/etc.

    Still, I would much rather see 4 fall programs as complex as Chan's than clean programs as barftastic as Plushenko's. And I find it very said that most figure skating fans don't agree. I mean casual viewers I can get but if you know something about skating, you should be able to recognise all the incredible skills and difficulty that Chan shows falls or not and whether you like his style (I don't) or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by essence_of_soy View Post
    My advice:

    Suck in your pride now, Chan Man, and make a begging call to Krall.
    I concur.

    Or if their relationship is beyond saving, call Manon Perron or Scott Davis or anybody else who actually knows a thing or two about skating.

  2. #222
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    Be careful, ziggy, soon enough you will be branded a Chan apologist!

    As for his jumps, since midori and others who were there said Patrick had no problem with them during the warm up, so is there a chance that the problem was not due to his technique but other aspect such as mental stress for showing this complex programme to the audience for the first time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    Yes, how loud the thud is should determine the points for the jump.
    This is kind of OT, but the loudest thud I heard was not on a jump fall: during a recent trip to the rink, a woman tripped, fell backward and smacked her head hard; she lost consciousness and was dazed afterward, and had to be taken to the ER (I hope she was okay). It was really awful, and I'm glad that skaters are taught how to fall correctly so that they can get back up and into the program, even with multiple falls (barring something like Candice Didier's fall at 2009 Worlds) and even if I don't find the result particularly pleasing aesthetically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Still, I would much rather see 4 fall programs as complex as Chan's than clean programs as barftastic as Plushenko's. And I find it very said that most figure skating fans don't agree. I mean casual viewers I can get but if you know something about skating, you should be able to recognise all the incredible skills and difficulty that Chan shows falls or not and whether you like his style (I don't) or not.
    Oh, I can do that - though I assume the "you" was for people in general - and I think all but the harshest and/or craziest critics acknowledge what Chan brings to the ice (a courtesy not always extended to other skaters when they're discussed). But I was reacting to the suggestion that Chan's falls should be excused because he has difficult programs; I disagree. A skater should skate the most difficult program possible for them, but if a program is beyond their ability, then it should eventually be reworked. And again, I don't think that modifying one's programs has to mean "taking out all the choreo and transitions", and I don't understand why so many people in this thread are presenting it that way.

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    The never-ending debate over Chan's falls could use some hard facts. Those are not difficult to come by - the information is a few clicks away on the ISU's web site, just needs some collecting and calculating.

    Out of Chan's 25 international competitions listed on ISU, he had 15 "fall-free" short programs (60%) and 8 (!) "fall-free" long parograms (32%). His average fall-count per competition (SP+LP) is 1.68. That's not so bad, is it? Well, consider the competition:

    Out of Takahashi's 26 competitions he had 23 (88%) "fall-free" SPs and 13 (50%) "fall-free" LPs. His average FCPC (fall count per comp) is 0.77.

    Now Joubert obviously has less complicated programs, but he is a top skater with a long record for analysis. In 26 competitions Joubert has had 20 (80%) "fall-free" SPs and 16 (64%) "fall-free" LPs. His FCPC is 0.6.

    The absolute king of staying on one's feet is our Olympic champion. Out of 23 competitions he's had 20 (87%) "fall-free" SPs and 17 (74%) "fall-free" LPs. His FCPC is 0.43.

    Note that "fall-free" is not the same as "clean". Some jumps are so flawed they get a -3 GoE, but are not considered falls. Also note that one can fall on non-jump elements (steps, spins, transitions). FCPC shows not only how often a skater falls, but also indicates multi-falls.

    I tend to agree with Zem - Chan's programs are obviously too complex to execute cleanly. I also suspect that it is a strategy - when one is considered to be so far above the competition, with such complex programs, one gets very high PCS. An extra point in all PCS equals a 10-point advantage, well worth 2 falls in the free.

  5. #225
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    Zemgirl, yeah I get your point. Better play it a little safer if it can help you stay upright. But I would make a guess that Chan's falls usually stem from a loss of focus.

    Umronnie, you can't argue with hard data but the issue here is people perceiving falls as something much much worse than other mistakes. If you defined mistakes wider and included other major errors, I am sure that Chan wouldn't fare so badly against the other guys.

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    umronnie, which competitions did you include for each skater? Because obviously the length of their careers is not the same, and while Takahashi and Chan have skated more difficult choreography, Joubert and Plushenko have probably attempted a greater number of more difficult jumps. Anyway, interesting comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Zemgirl, yeah I get your point. Better play it a little safer if it can help you stay upright. But I would make a guess that Chan's falls usually stem from a loss of focus.
    I think that's been true at times - he's had some strange looking falls that certainly seemed like they were the result of lapses in concentration. Although then one can make the argument that it's because he's focusing on too many things and trying to accomplish too much.

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    umronnie, which competitions did you include for each skater? Because obviously the length of their careers is not the same, and while Takahashi and Chan have skated more difficult choreography, Joubert and Plushenko have probably attempted a greater number of more difficult jumps. Anyway, interesting comparison..
    Well, I started out with Patrick's competition. 25 comps is what I found for him, starting with the GP season of 2006-07. THen I checked out approximately the same number of the last competitions for each of the other skaters. For Takahashi and Joubert it was the also GP of 06-07 and for Lysacek I had to go back further as his last comp was OG10. Anyway, 23 was all I could find on the ISU server.

    I think that's been true at times - he's had some strange looking falls that certainly seemed like they were the result of lapses in concentration. Although then one can make the argument that it's because he's focusing on too many things and trying to accomplish too much.
    That's how I see it, too. Why would anyone lose concentration going into a quad? Attempting a double Axle, yeah, that could be careless (I am looking at you, Plushy, and you, Joubert) but for a 3A or a 4T one needs to be focused.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Umronnie, you can't argue with hard data but the issue here is people perceiving falls as something much much worse than other mistakes. If you defined mistakes wider and included other major errors, I am sure that Chan wouldn't fare so badly against the other guys.
    No, a fall is the ultimate mistake. Of course other mistakes matter but falls are the biggest mistakes and thus are worse. It is not that people "perceive falls as something much much worse" so much as there are so many falls - more than twice the falls of other elite skaters. You expect your champion to be better than most, don't you?

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Umronnie, you can't argue with hard data but the issue here is people perceiving falls as something much much worse than other mistakes. If you defined mistakes wider and included other major errors, I am sure that Chan wouldn't fare so badly against the other guys.
    Exactly, with COP, a skater receives more credit for a fully rotated triple with a fall than for certain doubled jumps and obviously more credit than for singled jumps. Doubling and singling jumps are much more grave mistakes than falling on a rotated triple.

  10. #230
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    I wanted to clarify my "THUD!" post earlier too. I actually wasn't mocking Chan's (or anyone else's) falls as some posters may have taken it (though I will admit that the replies it elicited were ). The "THUD!" was the sound of my head pounding against the keyboard or the sound of this thread dying again as it has been discussed to death already a thousand times before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by umronnie View Post
    I tend to agree with Zem - Chan's programs are obviously too complex to execute cleanly. I also suspect that it is a strategy - when one is considered to be so far above the competition, with such complex programs, one gets very high PCS. An extra point in all PCS equals a 10-point advantage, well worth 2 falls in the free.
    Of course, he has executed these programs cleanly before. Just not often

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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    I wanted to clarify my "THUD!" post earlier too. I actually wasn't mocking Chan's (or anyone else's) falls as some posters may have taken it (though I will admit that the replies it elicited were ). The "THUD!" was the sound of my head pounding against the keyboard or the sound of this thread dying again as it has been discussed to death already a thousand times before.
    Moderator, please un-do all the negative reps that I gave to museksk8r.

    It's official. I am madly in love with Meryl Davis.

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Moderator, please un-do all the negative reps that I gave to museksk8r.

    Pacifist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Zemgirl, yeah I get your point. Better play it a little safer if it can help you stay upright. But I would make a guess that Chan's falls usually stem from a loss of focus.
    Chan a couple of years ago described himself as a cheerful person who loses focus easily. I am no expert in training athletes, it's just a feeling that I have that loss of focus is as difficult to fix as it is to correct underrotations, two-foot landings and wrong edges in a skater.

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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    I wanted to clarify my "THUD!" post earlier too. I actually wasn't mocking Chan's (or anyone else's) falls as some posters may have taken it (though I will admit that the replies it elicited were ). The "THUD!" was the sound of my head pounding against the keyboard or the sound of this thread dying again as it has been discussed to death already a thousand times before.
    Always be specific and concise. See how poor Kurt got into trouble with his tweets!

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    Quote Originally Posted by umronnie View Post
    That's how I see it, too. Why would anyone lose concentration going into a quad? Attempting a double Axle, yeah, that could be careless (I am looking at you, Plushy, and you, Joubert) but for a 3A or a 4T one needs to be focused.
    Because of a million possible reasons. Because you're nervous, want it too much, are scared of failure, scared of success, because you feel a sudden itch, because you remember some important event in your life, because you're tired, and so on and so forth.

    Quote Originally Posted by umronnie View Post
    No, a fall is the ultimate mistake. Of course other mistakes matter but falls are the biggest mistakes and thus are worse. It is not that people "perceive falls as something much much worse" so much as there are so many falls - more than twice the falls of other elite skaters. You expect your champion to be better than most, don't you?
    Why do you see a fall as the ultimate mistake?

    I would much rather see a skater fall on a fully rotated jump (or an attempt at a fully rotated jump) than flutz, two-foot a landing or pop. Because I know that at least they are going for it and fighting and not playing it safe (or having incorrect technique in the first place).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Because of a million possible reasons. Because you're nervous, want it too much, are scared of failure, scared of success, because you feel a sudden itch, because you remember some important event in your life, because you're tired, and so on and so forth.
    Or in the case of one previous Canadian skater they saw ghosts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    I would much rather see a skater fall on a fully rotated jump (or an attempt at a fully rotated jump) than flutz, two-foot a landing or pop. Because I know that at least they are going for it and fighting and not playing it safe (or having incorrect technique in the first place).
    I agree. Good technique does count for something. You definately do not see Chan back off - he goes for it.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    I know figure skating is not gymnastics, but usually in that sport even just one fall does you in . I don't think it is expecting too much of elite skaters to have a minimal number of falls. When a skater falls 2 or more times in a program, I really can't see his or her skating skills as being all that impressive overall. If a skater falls on a jump , I am all for giving him no points for the attempt. Is there any other sport in which an athlete is given points for attempting something but failing in the execution. They would be in as big a mess as skating is if they did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    I agree. Good technique does count for something. You definately do not see Chan back off - he goes for it.
    And this is something that funnily enough the detractors never seem to mention.

    It happens very rarely that he pops and if he does, it's not because he gave up on take-off but because the loss of focus meant the jump went totally wrong and he slipped on take-off and fell or something like that.

    I don't remember him ever flutzing or lipping and he pretty much always fully rotates his jumps.

    I don't remember any two-footed landings either.

    Of course those errors surely did happen to him at some stage but rarely.

    He pretty much always goes for it. He attacks every single jump, tries to fully rotate it and land on one foot.

    And yes that means that he falls more than average but when you look at other skaters that fall less, you will find that they make other mistakes that Chan doesn't do as often. Because he doesn't hold back and goes for it.

    That is the champion's attitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    I know figure skating is not gymnastics, but usually in that sport even just one fall does you in . I don't think it is expecting too much of elite skaters to have a minimal number of falls. When a skater falls 2 or more times in a program, I really can't see his or her skating skills as being all that impressive overall. If a skater falls on a jump , I am all for giving him no points for the attempt. Is there any other sport in which an athlete is given points for attempting something but failing in the execution. They would be in as big a mess as skating is if they did.
    Again, why do you think so? Why do you perceive a fall as the biggest negative?

    If a skater fully rotates a jump and falls on the landing, they have executed the large part of that element correctly. And they fought for it. They went for it. It didn't work but skating is an extremely difficult sport requiring precise timing and full body control. It won't always work.

    If somebody lands on two-feet (unless it's by accident), it screams "I am playing it safe/I am scared I won't make it/etc.".

    Yet people see a fall as much worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    I know figure skating is not gymnastics, but usually in that sport even just one fall does you in . I don't think it is expecting too much of elite skaters to have a minimal number of falls. When a skater falls 2 or more times in a program, I really can't see his or her skating skills as being all that impressive overall. If a skater falls on a jump , I am all for giving him no points for the attempt. Is there any other sport in which an athlete is given points for attempting something but failing in the execution. They would be in as big a mess as skating is if they did.
    Gymnast McKayla Maroney fell on her bottom on the landing in the vault event at the London Olympics and scored 14.300 on that vault. Her two combined vaults brought her the silver medal.

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