View Poll Results: Would Yamaguchi and K/P have won 2nd Oly Gold if reinstated

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  • both would have

    43 41.75%
  • Yamaguchi would have, K/P would not have

    33 32.04%
  • K/P would have, Yamaguchi would not have

    15 14.56%
  • both would not have

    11 10.68%
  • Yamaguchi wouldnt have wno but would have flipped ordinals of Biaul vs Kerrigan

    1 0.97%
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  1. #21
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    Interesting nobody picked my last option.

  2. #22
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    Kristi definitely could have won a second gold with only a 2 year interval after Albertville. Considering the jumps she was landing on tour and in pro comps that season, it is very easy to believe she could have regained all her 92 skills, with even better presentation after a year of touring. I think Kristi was still a better skater than Kerrigan in every way and had such a significant jumping advantage over Baiul that all of Baiul's magic could not have overcome the technical deficit.

    As for dance, it remains the perpetual crap shoot. Klimova/P were so universally respected and admired that I think they could have won a few more years, unless and until some shift in the Russian heirarchy decided to move them on. Mentally though, I think they were really ready to be done with ISU competition after 3 Olympics and 9 years in the top echelon. I honestly don't know if they could have maintained a competitive focus for two more years with nothing left to prove. It probably would have come down to the drama and in-fighting of the 3 great Russian lady dance coaches to determine whose couple was placed over whose.

    Interesting nobody picked my last option.
    Maybe that's because it doesn't address the dance results, which is half the survey. In any event, Kristi's presence would probably not have helped Kerrigan vs Baiul, IMO. If you look at the judges' ordinals, the ones who placed Kerrigan first in the FS would have been the same ones politically most likely to vote for Kristi (GBR, USA, Japan, Canada). She may also have won some of Baiul's judges (Poland, CZK, Ukraine, China, Germany) but I think her presence would have hurt Kerrigan more.
    Last edited by Susan M; 10-06-2012 at 03:26 AM.

  3. #23
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    I feel pretty confident that both would have won. I actually think both would've grown even more artistically as well, and both of them technically had the goods, even on an off day.

  4. #24
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    I am kind of amazed so many people think K/P wouldnt have won in 94, almost half. That is why I made the poll though, I was curious what people here would think. I could have seen the doubts if T/D had won or if U/Z had won with an outstanding performance befitting a reigning World Champion, but with a nowhere near career peak G/P winning with not great compulsories, a mediocre OD, and a sloppy over the top FD, pretty surprised at the votes.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I am kind of amazed so many people think K/P wouldnt have won in 94, almost half. That is why I made the poll though, I was curious what people here would think. I could have seen the doubts if T/D had won or if U/Z had won with an outstanding performance befitting a reigning World Champion, but with a nowhere near career peak G/P winning with not great compulsories, a mediocre OD, and a sloppy over the top FD, pretty surprised at the votes.
    This is just because you have a really bad idea of G&P level !

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    This is just because you have a really bad idea of G&P level !
    Their level in 94 wasnt that high. They were a way better team in the 95-98 quad, even by the 95 Worlds despite being injured alot of the year they were so far improved, more polished, and mature, probably bolstered with the confidence of a big title. I am not getting into a whole discussion again of whether they deserved to win or not but regardless of that in 94 they werent that great. Their rhumba OD was a frenetic mess, way too busy and over the top for that sultry dance. Their FD was entertaining but sloppy, had many spots of poor unision, and way too much open skating far apart, and stoppages.

    The 94 Olympic event just wasnt that great with U&Z in subpar form and with a lame FD, and T&D trying to get their FD right all season and having weak CDs which reflected their time away from amateur competition. With 3 of the best dance teams in history you would expect a spectacular event but it definitely didnt pan out that way, it turned out to be an event alot like the 2010 mens event where you felt they should give out 3 bronze medals and leave it at that.

    That is also why I think K&P could have and probably would have cakewalked to a 2nd straight Olympic title, and much more easily than they won in 92 (without even having to match the level of their 92 performances). Heck I even think it would have been harder for Yamaguchi to win than K&P, Yamaguchi never faced Kerrigan with her 94 level of determination, conditioning, and consistency before, and Baiul was the judges darling at that point and for all the faults in her skating had something special or atleast felt like she did at the time. K&P would have had to overcome....pretty much nothing in hindsight from my perspective.

  7. #27
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    I prefer this explanation to the : "G&P were bad".
    G&P had the best Compulsories at the Olympics. And K&P were not that great at Compulsories.
    I agree about the OD, and they probably would have finished in 4th.
    I agree about their FD, but it was by far the most entertaining, and the most refreshing.
    K&P's 1992 FD was fantastic, but the rules had changed. I don't know what would have been their FD in 1994, lol.

  8. #28
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    In my case, judgejudy, my answer is a lot like Susan M's. I do think that the Russian fed had moved on. I feel comfortable saying that K/P would've been better than what we saw demonstrated in the 1994 Olympics with their technical and artistic skills. I'm not sure that they would've been rewarded, though.

    I still think the drama would've been between Kerrigan and Harding. Presumably, if Yamaguchi reinstates (as opposed to competes for two more years) the USA still only has two spots (thanks to Kerrigan's meltdown in 1993) and it's between Kerrigan and Harding for the second spot at the Olympics.

  9. #29
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    It seems artistry mattered way more back in 1994 in Olympic ladies than it probably ever has in recent Olympiads. IMO, as eligibles, Baiul was more artistic than Yamaguchi and Kerrigan. Kristi didn't really blossom artistically until after her Olympic eligible career. The judges turned a blind eye to Oksana's numerous 2-foot landings and lack of combination jumps and combination spins. Kerrigan clearly surpassed her technically, but that was ultimately ignored, so I don't quite believe it would have been such a walk in the park for Kristi to win a 2nd consecutive gold medal, particularly given that she doubled a Salchow and fell on a 3loop in Albertville. Plus, Yama would not have had the sympathy story of being an orphan losing her parents at such a young age, coming from a poor upbringing, and competing injured as Oksana did due to her practice collision with Tanja Szewczenko.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Kerrigan clearly surpassed her technically, but that was ultimately ignored, so I don't quite believe it would have been such a walk in the park for Kristi to win a 2nd consecutive gold medal, particularly given that she doubled a Salchow and fell on a 3loop in Albertville.
    Yeah, if Kristi had turned in a clean performance in Lillehammer she probably would have won, but with a performance like she had in Albertville, I'm not so sure she wouldn't have been 3rd behind Kerrigan. Falls were a big deal back then, especially for an Olympic champion. She was still able to win in 92 because others fell and the whole event was a splatfest. The 94 event was not exactly a jump powerhouse, but Kerrigan and Baiul stood up on all their triples.

    Anyway, under this scenario, does Harding's husband have to whack Yamaguchi also, and does she recover quickly?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    I still think the drama would've been between Kerrigan and Harding. Presumably, if Yamaguchi reinstates (as opposed to competes for two more years) the USA still only has two spots (thanks to Kerrigan's meltdown in 1993) and it's between Kerrigan and Harding for the second spot at the Olympics.
    I don't really see Gillooly saying "Well Kristi is going to win anyway, let's leave her alone and go after our challenger for the silver medal."

    Kristi would have been the target, especially since she arguably would have been considered a bigger threat than Nancy in Lillehammer.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    It seems artistry mattered way more back in 1994 in Olympic ladies than it probably ever has in recent Olympiads. IMO, as eligibles, Baiul was more artistic than Yamaguchi and Kerrigan. Kristi didn't really blossom artistically until after her Olympic eligible career. The judges turned a blind eye to Oksana's numerous 2-foot landings and lack of combination jumps and combination spins. Kerrigan clearly surpassed her technically, but that was ultimately ignored, so I don't quite believe it would have been such a walk in the park for Kristi to win a 2nd consecutive gold medal, particularly given that she doubled a Salchow and fell on a 3loop in Albertville. Plus, Yama would not have had the sympathy story of being an orphan losing her parents at such a young age, coming from a poor upbringing, and competing injured as Oksana did due to her practice collision with Tanja Szewczenko.
    Kristi was not a ballerina, but she had great artistry and very good presentation, better than Kerrigan. Her 1992 Blue Danube was so good !
    Baiul's win was against Kerrigan. I don't have the feeling that judges wanted Baiul to win. They just wanted Kerrigan to not win, IMO. Remember that Baiul didn't even win Europeans (with a better performance than her Olympic LP !)
    Against the current Olympic champion, strong technically and in presentation, I don't think judges would have hesitated !

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ares View Post
    I don't really see Gillooly saying "Well Kristi is going to win anyway, let's leave her alone and go after our challenger for the silver medal."

    Kristi would have been the target, especially since she arguably would have been considered a bigger threat than Nancy in Lillehammer.
    Maybe both would've been threats?

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    Maybe both would've been threats?
    Nooooooo !

    In fact, maybe no one would have had this stupid idea, because Tonya would have thinked "anyway, I will never win, so, nevermind".

    So, Tonya would have never been banned from figure skating.
    Plus, if Kristi wins the Gold in Lillehammer. Oksana Baiul would not have retired so soon, with alcohol and other problems we know.

    Kristi, why didn't you come back ??????

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    I prefer this explanation to the : "G&P were bad".
    G&P had the best Compulsories at the Olympics. And K&P were not that great at Compulsories.
    I agree about the OD, and they probably would have finished in 4th.
    I agree about their FD, but it was by far the most entertaining, and the most refreshing.
    K&P's 1992 FD was fantastic, but the rules had changed. I don't know what would have been their FD in 1994, lol.
    That's the first time I've heard anyone say something about K/P not being that good at compulsories. They always dominated that portion with the exception of 1991 Worlds where they made a mistake.

    Also, don't forget K/P were masters of the ballroom style until they had to adapt to the ice dance landscape of the early 90s and so they ended up with more interpretive types of dances. Their difficulty is pretty evident in those dances not to mention their superior lines, unison, dance holds, lifts (I always thought lifts were G/P's weak spot in terms of fitting with their choreography and how they were set up and finished) and musicality. Of course the judges seemed to try to find any excuse to hold them back, so maybe some of the judges felt the way you do briancoogaert.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    That's the first time I've heard anyone say something about K/P not being that good at compulsories. They always dominated that portion with the exception of 1991 Worlds where they made a mistake.

    Also, don't forget K/P were masters of the ballroom style until they had to adapt to the ice dance landscape of the early 90s and so they ended up with more interpretive types of dances. Their difficulty is pretty evident in those dances not to mention their superior lines, unison, dance holds, lifts (I always thought lifts were G/P's weak spot in terms of fitting with their choreography and how they were set up and finished) and musicality. Of course the judges seemed to try to find any excuse to hold them back, so maybe some of the judges felt the way you do briancoogaert.
    My opinion is that they were not as great as Bestemianova&Bukin in Compulsories. But they were the best of their quadrennial (1989-1992). But it's not that clear that they would have won compulsories in Lillehammer.
    That's what I wanted to say.

  17. #37
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    Well Usova & Zhulin won the first compulsory dance and lost the 2nd by only 1 judge. Klimova & Ponomarenko never had problem beating U&Z in compulsory dances, apart from the 91 Worlds where she stumbled. Also in general Usova & Zhulin were also skatnig far from peak form at the 94 Olympics.

    I hadnt thought about that Yamaguchi might be attacked had she come back. I am not sure exactly how Harding or her team's minds works, but maybe they would have decided to attack Yamaguchi in that case (yikes). Then again maybe Kristi would have recovered and skated her best at the Olympics just like Nancy did in that case, and if she did might well have won. It seems unlikely if Yamaguchi were back that Harding and her team would decide to attack Kerrigan though. It makes no sense to plan an attack on someone who probably wouldnt have even been the U.S one to beat, and with Kerrigan's poor showing at the 93 Worlds I am pretty sure Kristi coming back would have been immediatedly marketed as their #1 skater again. So it would probably either be Yamaguchi or nobody.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I am not sure exactly how Harding or her team's minds works, but maybe they would have decided to attack Yamaguchi in that case (yikes).
    Yes, and I don't know how it works either. Just the fact that they imagine this against Kerrigan is a non sense. USA had 2 spots, so Tonya would have been in the Olympic team, and Nancy Kerrigan, as you said, was 5th in the World, and didn't skate that well at the beginning of the season (including 1993 Pre-Olympics Pirruetten Trophy that she won). lol

  19. #39
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    It seems the thinking was Harding thought she only had a chance at a medal at the Olympics if she went in as National Champion and U.S #1, and if she had the USFSA support and behind the scenes backing as their #1. She and her team apparently came to the last straw after coming only 4th at NHK behind Bonaly, Chen, and Sato, even though she skated well. It was even reported she did a clean short and came 7th, and Bonaly and Chen fell in their shorts and came 3rd and 4th. I find that hard to believe, but it was backed by more than one source, I would have loved to have seen that event.

  20. #40
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    Sorry I brought it up. Neither pleasant to think about nor particularly logical.

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