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  1. #61
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    Why yes. Thank you.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockTheTassel View Post
    I don't know what it is, but I've already been called selfish for saying that I don't want kids
    I will never understand the 'selfish' argument. Surely it's better to recognise that you aren't interested in having children than bring one into the world you're likely to resent or couldn't care for. That would be more selfish in my view.

    The other argument thrown at those of us who don't want children is that we should think of all the people in the world who want them but can't have them. Obviously that is tragic and I feel for anyone who is unable to have children and wants them, but how would me having a child make that better?

    Oh, and my other favourite (I'm on a roll here) is "But what if everyone felt the way you do?". Well, clearly they don't, so that is just irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by michiruwater View Post
    My first gynecologist was an asshole. I told him I didn't really see myself ever wanting kids, and he looked at me soooo patronizingly and said, "you're female. All females want babies."
    Reminds me of a doctor who told me, in relation to a 'female problem', that it would likely fix itself when I had children. My reply was "What's this 'when' business?". In fairness, he did correct himself. I've also since heard from many women that what he told me was a load of rubbish anyway.
    The ancient Egyptians worshipped cats as gods, and the cats have never forgotten.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hannahclear View Post
    Aww I'm sure you are doing fine. How old is your kid? I remember feeling like you. I found the first 18 months a mostly non magical experience. It gets better.
    He's only four months old. I did get lucky with a super happy, happy baby who hardly ever cries. It's just sooo overwhelming.

  4. #64
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    It is, Lanie. It gets easier when they get a bit older, hang in there.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  5. #65
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    I discovered at a young age that I had a talent for killing house plants. No way was I going to have a kid.

  6. #66
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    Lanie, I'm not a parent so my opinion maybe doesn't mean much but what I've observed is that the first couple of years is completely overwhelming. Especially for the first child it changes your life dramatically and as much as people say they're prepared, they never are. It seems to me that the parents that admit that it's hard and isn't always super awesome make the best parents though. I don't know you personally but of all my numerous new parent friends the ones that are honest about how hard things are seem to have the best grasp on parenthood, IMO. They're the ones that are least likely to lose their identities to their children and are most likely to take care of their own needs which directly benefits the child(ren). Hang in there.
    "Beautiful things don't ask for attention." -The Secret Life of Walter Mitty

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    He's only four months old. I did get lucky with a super happy, happy baby who hardly ever cries. It's just sooo overwhelming.
    Yes it is. I felt that every hour alone with baby took about 10 hours to elapse. Now he's happily watching calliou and I am having some mental space. Hang in there!

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunny Hop View Post
    Oh, and my other favourite (I'm on a roll here) is "But what if everyone felt the way you do?". Well, clearly they don't, so that is just irrelevant.
    Hmm, yes, but people increasingly DO feel that way and there are implications, some of them rather dire, for society as we know it.

    Which doesn't mean that people should have kids they don't want, just that I don't think the question is irrelevant philosophically .
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by TygerTyger View Post
    I had my first child last year at 35. Six months later we acquired a second child via a family adoption (SIL is a Meth Addict.) At the time, I was convinced that taking the baby was the right thing to do, and I have grown quite fond of the boy. But, frankly, it's Hell. We are a thousand miles from friends and family, and are having financial troubles. I would LOVE to get out of the house once in a while. But I did not finish college, and could never make enough money to keep the boys in day care.
    Yesterday, my husband got a vasectomy Not that it was really necessary - as every time he opens his mouth I want to murder him.
    Adding a second child when the first is six months old would exhaust anyone, and when you add financial challenges and being far from family to the mix Really lucky for the little guy that you took him in, but tough nonetheless. Is there a mom-group you could join to meet up with other moms for some social time for you at no cost?

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oreo View Post
    I discovered at a young age that I had a talent for killing house plants. No way was I going to have a kid.
    I pretty routinely kill off plants, but it hasn't seemed to affect the mom instinct. And despite my kid being nearly done with college, I still have napkins, tissues and band-aids with me most of the time.

  11. #71

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    Whoops - duplicate.

  12. #72

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    Lanie - your baby is adorable, and healthy and you are a great mom. Don't let others tell you differently.

    Well, as a kid, I played with dolls all the time, and loved it. I want to have kids, badly, but it's more of one of those "in the future, sometime" kind of things. I don't think most people who know me would describe me as particularly motherly; and I can't change a diaper or know shit about raising a child. All I know is that I really want to have a child at some point in my life, and would be very upset if I couldn't have one.

    Now, that's just me, and I don't care what other people want or think

    One of my close high school friends is very sure she does not want to have a child. She's married, and her husband feels the same way. However, she can't find a doctor who will tie her tubes because she will "change her mind".

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Hmm, yes, but people increasingly DO feel that way and there are implications, some of them rather dire, for society as we know it.

    Which doesn't mean that people should have kids they don't want, just that I don't think the question is irrelevant philosophically .
    But on the other side, what if everyone felt the way the Duggars did? It seems to me that this POV is also gaining in popularity among a certain segment of society. Luckily they balance each other out.

    Which is why I don't understand the "not having kids is selfish" line of thought. I actually think HAVING kids is selfish particularly with our environment straining to contain the population we do have. I know I didn't have kids for any noble reason either. I had them because I wanted to. And I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Or with not having them either.

    (The only unselfish choice when it comes to kids is adopting one that no one else wants IMO.)

    When it comes to kids, I think it's important to do what you want and not have them if you don't want them and to have them if you do because it serves no one to have kids if you don't want them or not have them if you do.
    Last edited by MacMadame; 09-30-2012 at 07:57 PM.
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    When asked if I have kids, I say "No. We rent." I've never met a parent who wouldn't happily part with theirs for a few hours, or even an overnight. So, we borrow children whenever we want to do something that might appeal to them.
    AceOn6, the golf loving skating fan

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    But on the other side, what if everyone felt the way the Duggans did? It seems to me that this POV is also gaining in popularity among a certain segment of society. Luckily they balance each other out.
    Most people did what the Duggars do for most of history. It's likely that a lot of her children would have died early and/or she would have died in childbirth at some point and not had any more. So IMO, the number of children they have is more due to medical advances and better nutrition than them making a particular choice (even though it seems unnatural because of how society has changed).

    Which is why I don't understand the "not having kids is selfish" line of thought. I actually think HAVING kids is selfish particularly with our environment straining to contain the population we do have.
    IMO whether it's selfish depends on one's individual reasons. I will totally admit that my primary reason for not wanting kids is selfish - I don't want to take care of a person who's going to be totally dependent on me. It's too much work. Others decide not to have kids because as you said, they don't want to burden the environment or maybe they want to be in Drs without borders or something and don't think it'd be fair to drag the kid with them. My great-aunt desperately wanted children, but she became a nun and ran an orphanage instead, so she liked to say she could have had a couple of her own children, but instead she got to raise hundreds of children. That's unselfish.

    And lots of people have children for very selfish reasons, so yeah, you can't judge it based on broad strokes.

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    He's only four months old. I did get lucky with a super happy, happy baby who hardly ever cries. It's just sooo overwhelming.
    It *is* overwhelming. It DOES get better. Of course there are phases. My lovely daughter had the terrible twos. and threes. and fours. . . and at 11 she still has her tantrum-y days (and likely will through adolescence!). But it DOES get better.

    I try to keep in mind that families with multiple children can have their kids turn out as many ways as they have kids. I and my sisters are all different, but we're all functional members of society, so I feel like my parents succeeded. Then there are other families where a couple of kids will be stable and successful, another will be a traveling bohemian, another will be an addict and a wreck. Kids were all parented the same but turned out different.
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  17. #77
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    It does get better but sometimes a kid and a parent have personalities that just don't mesh and that can be very hard.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    One of my close high school friends is very sure she does not want to have a child. She's married, and her husband feels the same way. However, she can't find a doctor who will tie her tubes because she will "change her mind".
    Her husband ought to get the snip instead - it's a much less invasive surgery.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    But on the other side, what if everyone felt the way the Duggars did? It seems to me that this POV is also gaining in popularity among a certain segment of society. Luckily they balance each other out.
    Well, no, they don't, because there are far, far more people not having children or having only one or two children than there are Duggars. The birth rate in US is, in spite of being the highest in the developed world, below replacement level.

    Every nation on earth has a declining birth rate, including countries like India where the birth rate is still high. And the birth rate will continue to decline everywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Which is why I don't understand the "not having kids is selfish" line of thought. I actually think HAVING kids is selfish particularly with our environment straining to contain the population we do have.
    The environment can sustain the population just fine. It's our lifestyles that strain the environment.

    Those of us who live in developed societies are about to get whacked with a major societal problem because of declining birth rates--high numbers of aged dependents and insufficient numbers of people in the work force to adequately support them. Right now, one of out of every five people in the world is over 60. By 2050, the ratio will be one in three, with most of those older people living in developed countries. By just 2035, the ratio of taxpayers to retirees in the US will be 2.5 to 1. By 2030, taxpayers in the US will have to pay 31.9% in taxes to support retirees at current rates, which isn't too bad really--in Japan, the rate will be 53.2% and in Italy, which has a very low birth rate, it will be 71.5%.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/earth/g...ends-quiz.html
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  20. #80
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    It's going to suck for the older people for a while but I think everything works better with less people on the earth.

    And, no, we won't die out. These things go in cycles. At some point people will have more children because it's advantageous to do so. Also, at some point it all levels out. People have less and less children for a while but eventually it gets to a point where people are comfortable and they stop having less and less and just have the same.

    Kind of like the divorce rate leveled out at 41% when people were predicting that by the year XXXX everyone will have been divorced at least once.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

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