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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Butyrskaya was the real DIVA. The passion she had for the music, her elegance, her maturity. Great edges despite her legs being a bit stiff. Having both flip and lutz off correct edges in an era where few skaters gave a damn about that. There hasn't been a skater like this since she has retired. I really miss her.

    She was the archetypal 'lady' whilst Slutskaya had a more perky and 'athletic' approach. But both of them were capable of skating to the music very well. Their rivalry was fantastic.

    I am still furious over the idiot Dick Button deciding to constantly fixate on her few weak points whilst giving his favourite skaters like Kwan a total pass on theirs.

    And the way she was totally dumped by the judges at the 2002 Olympics was just .



    Attention to detail, use of the whole body, with her movement being in character of the music chosen.



    Between her big flutz and her usual cheats, you can't really describe Hughes' program as 'clean.'
    The trouble is - if you're going to Hughes on her cheated triples, then you have to call Maria on hers. Whereas Hughes had those soft spinny under-rotations, Maria had that those stiffer hooked landings on her harder triples (particularly that flip). Maria did have flip and lutz off correct edges though.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    The trouble is - if you're going to Hughes on her cheated triples, then you have to call Maria on hers. Whereas Hughes had those soft spinny under-rotations, Maria had that those stiffer hooked landings on her harder triples (particularly that flip).

    LOL...having a stiff knee on the landing is not nearly as bad as a mistake as underrotating the jump (which Hughes regularly did on almost all triple jumps, sometimes up to 1/2 rotation)

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    .

    I am still furious over the idiot Dick Button deciding to constantly fixate on her few weak points whilst giving his favourite skaters like Kwan a total pass on theirs.
    I don't remember Button being particularly harsh on Bute other than maybe her layback. But then during that era of baby ballerinas, Kwan got criticized for that as well. I do remember him being harsh on Slutskaya though, no matter how many times he mentioned the cheek-pinching story. Also, as for Kwan getting a pass…watch her Bolero during that cheesiest after 2005 Worlds. I know one time isn't much, that one time was particularly harsh (if truthful) where it was almost personal.

    It's been forever since I've seen a Hughes performance, but were her URs really that bad or is it like one those accepted "facts" that she URed them tp to 1/2 rotation "regularly…on almost all triple jumps"?
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 01-28-2014 at 03:14 PM.
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    And the way she was totally dumped by the judges at the 2002 Olympics was just .
    I feel she wasn't dumped by the judges so much as by her own Federation which had decided to put all their eggs in the Slutskaya basket. Her own nervousness in the free didn't help either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karpenko View Post
    She was very very high maintenance, but she really had an extraordinary look on the ice. When I think of a woman on the ice, I still think of Maria even over skaters like Katarina Witt. Maria at her best was like Gena Davis on the ice, and she had absolutely gorgeous body lines and presence.

    It was really nice to see her soften up over the years - the less tense, bitchy, and stiff she skated, the more beautiful she was to watch.. Her triple loop is still the best IMO, she also had nice pointed toes at almost every opportunity and a very pretty camel position.

    I also think that Maria Butyrskaya is perhaps the only modern day skater that could scare Barbara Fusar-Poli with a stare of her own.
    Witt was nowhere near the skater Butyrskaya was. Then again Butyrskaya was nowhere near the competitor Witt was.

    She was just stunning and sexy.

    Speaking about the stare, her opening eye in Malaguena still freaks me out.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I don't remember Button being particularly harsh on Bute other than maybe her layback. But then during that era of baby ballerinas, Kwan got criticized for that as well. I do remember him being harsh on Slutskaya though, no matter how many times he mentioned the cheek-pinching story. Also, as for Kwan getting a pass…watch her Bolero during that cheesiest after 2005 Worlds. I know one time isn't much, that one time was particularly harsh (if truthful) where it was almost personal.

    It's been forever since I've seen a Hughes performance, but were her URs really that bad or is it like one those accepted "facts" that she URed them tp to 1/2 rotation "regularly…on almost all triple jumps"?
    I remember that. Marshall's in 2005...he was talking about her like she'd kicked his puppy or something. IDK, I think he may have been frustrated with her but, to be fair, Bolero was probably her worst FS ever so I guess I get where he was coming from.

    As for Sarah, she didn't consistently UR jumps by 1/2 a turn. I'd say she was a bit like Mirai in that she would sometimes hook her landings slightly before the quarter turn. By 6.0 standard it wasn't a big deal but under the scrutiny of the IJS and the quarter turn rule, she'd probably have received her share of URs particularly on her 3-3 combos with the 3L on the back end.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I already know from our past conversations you will strongly disagree but I would have placed Voltchkova above Hughes at this event in both programs. Atleast Victoria had absolutely spectacular jumps, the best of all the women that night as Irinas jumps were clearly off her best that night, while Sarah wasnt particularly good in anything in her performances here. Anyway it would have allowed Maria to win the bronze overall so that alone is enough reason to mark it that way.

    I also agree Maria could have beaten Irina in the long program which is another way she would have gotten 3rd overall. Had she went for and made the 2nd triple lutz she probably would have since a couple judges had her 2nd over Irina anyway (well I presume 2 judges had her over Irina, a couple judges had Maria 2nd, and a couple judges had Irina over Michelle after she skated, but I am guessing they are 4 different judges; but for all I know there might have been a judge that had Irina, Maria, Michelle as I havent seen the ordinals in full ever).
    Yeah, I guess this is something we won't agree about. I just thought Volchkova's skating - other than her jumps and basic skating - was pretty subpar. Sarah IMO had better spins, spirals, and style, although I know many here disagree. I actually would prefer Suguri over Volchkova in the short but that was probably not going to happen because of reputation. Fumie had a better program, better speed, and stronger spins that included a great death drop.

    Then again, Maria was denied a medal at Worlds because she was blindly robbed in the short. She should have been getting marks in the league of Kwan and Nikodinov's. It was blatant skater dropping on the part of the judges because Maria's same exact program was scored so much better at the previous Worlds. That alone would get her a medal. I think there are arguments for Maria over Irina in the long but I don't believe it was controversial that Irina came out ahead.

  8. #88
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    COP would have been absolutely horrible for Sarah. She would have been getting Amber Corwin like results under COP (which show some of the flaws of COP since as ridiculously overrated, overscored, and lucky as her career and OGM was, she is still a much better skater than Corwin). Even her skate of a life Olympic LP would have had a flutz call, an < call of some kind on about 3 of her jump passes, with atleast one >> (before recently any > was an >> type loss of points though), and most of the non jump elements would have level 1. I cant even say how she would have placed at a Worlds or Olympic since there probably wouldnt have even been one. Some people have suggested Michelle Kwan can thank her lucky stars she didnt skate under COP, but that applies to Sarah Hughes about 5 times more then.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    Yeah, I guess this is something we won't agree about. I just thought Volchkova's skating - other than her jumps and basic skating - was pretty subpar. Sarah IMO had better spins, spirals, and style, although I know many here disagree. I actually would prefer Suguri over Volchkova in the short but that was probably not going to happen because of reputation. Fumie had a better program, better speed, and stronger spins that included a great death drop.

    Then again, Maria was denied a medal at Worlds because she was blindly robbed in the short. She should have been getting marks in the league of Kwan and Nikodinov's. It was blatant skater dropping on the part of the judges because Maria's same exact program was scored so much better at the previous Worlds. That alone would get her a medal. I think there are arguments for Maria over Irina in the long but I don't believe it was controversial that Irina came out ahead.
    Didnt 2 judges place Maria over Kwan for 2nd place in the short at those Worlds though, and Kwan had a spectacular performance despite placing 2nd to Irina's superior technical performance. So atleast some of the judges were impressed by Maria's short. Then others werent with ordinals like 7th or 8th. It seems the judges had no idea what to do with her.

    I have never seen her short from those Worlds but I have heard all kinds of different testimonies which were as mixed as the judges placements. Some say she skated very well, not as well as she skated the same program when she handily won the short at Worlds the previous year, but still a top 3 performance. Others say she skated cautiously and not that well, but even those would probably have marked her above Hughes. Then one blog I read and a friend of mine who was at the event live said she was crawling, most of her elements were shaky and she should have been like 8th behind Suguri in the short program. So I have no idea what to assume about her performance. Not skating in the final flight with all the other contenders grouped there was obviously never going to be to her benefit.

  10. #90
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    I always was aware of Butyrskayas weakness', but I agree with the others saying she should have medalled at 96 worlds. If I remember correctly, she didn't fall, but had a hand down in that performance. Slutskaya had good technical content, but it was marred with a fall. I think it could have gone either way in 01 worlds with Hughes, even though I am not a fan of her skating.

    Maria's SP at the 95-96 season (Fever) is still on one of the best ladies SP ever. Better than anything Witt did in a SP.

  11. #91
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    Maria always made for an interesting rivalry at Worlds. She was stiff in her knees but her programs were always interesting.

  12. #92

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    It's a shame that she reserved her most boring programs for the 2001-2002 season complete with a perpetual pained expression throughout the SP and really screechy and annoying music for the LP.
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  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    It's a shame that she reserved her most boring programs for the 2001-2002 season complete with a perpetual pained expression throughout the SP and really screechy and annoying music for the LP.
    The long program always got a laugh from me. The music was characterized by angsty tension, and Maria was essentially screaming mature woman angst in that program. I thought the posing she did during the bells around the first minute mark was hilarious.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Didnt 2 judges place Maria over Kwan for 2nd place in the short at those Worlds though, and Kwan had a spectacular performance despite placing 2nd to Irina's superior technical performance. So atleast some of the judges were impressed by Maria's short. Then others werent with ordinals like 7th or 8th. It seems the judges had no idea what to do with her.

    I have never seen her short from those Worlds but I have heard all kinds of different testimonies which were as mixed as the judges placements. Some say she skated very well, not as well as she skated the same program when she handily won the short at Worlds the previous year, but still a top 3 performance. Others say she skated cautiously and not that well, but even those would probably have marked her above Hughes. Then one blog I read and a friend of mine who was at the event live said she was crawling, most of her elements were shaky and she should have been like 8th behind Suguri in the short program. So I have no idea what to assume about her performance. Not skating in the final flight with all the other contenders grouped there was obviously never going to be to her benefit.
    I know Maria skated cleanly although perhaps she was tentative. I don't remember. There's no mark of that program on Youtube. Michelle had the slightest two-foot on her 3lutz which was why she was decidedly placed behind Slutskaya.

    People always say that so-and-so would not do well under CoP. But was anyone during that time doing elements beyond mostly level 1s at that time anyway (with the exception of Slutskaya)? I'm not convinced Michelle would not have done well under CoP. It's not like Butyrskaya or Volchkova or Nikodinov would have done any better (and the latter two were not successful during the transition).

  15. #95

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    And you know, an ill-prepared Kwan with level 1s and mistakes galore did pretty well considering what she was putting out there at 2005 Worlds.
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    Apart from the qualifying round which barely counted for any points Kwan didnt have mistakes galore at the 2005 Worlds. All her competitors apart from Slutskaya and Cohen who had about the same number as she did. In the short she was clean. The long she had a two foot landing and fall. Slutskaya in the short had 2 mistakes and in the long gave up a whole 5 points which is more than a fall worth by doing a 3rd triple loop. Cohen had 2 minor mistakes in the short and problems on the landings of 3 different jumps. Both still scored way above Kwan. Kostner missed the last 3 jumps in her long program, two of them badly, and almost collapsed in exhaustion at the end, but got almost the same long program score as Kwan to hold her off for the bronze.

    Mistakes galore is what Arakawa did missing like 6 jumps over the short and long program as opposed to only 2 for Michelle. Yet her hot mess of a long program performance still got almost the same PCS as Kwan.

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    Kwan may have bombed the qualifying, but she was robbed in the short. Then again Kostner was royally screwed in the short the most and should have had a big lead in that segment. The short should have been 1) Kostner 2) Kwan. Nearly 10 years later and I'm still not sure how Slutskaya and Cohen finished 1,2 in that segment.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    Kwan may have bombed the qualifying, but she was robbed in the short. Then again Kostner was royally screwed in the short the most and should have had a big lead in that segment. The short should have been 1) Kostner 2) Kwan. Nearly 10 years later and I'm still not sure how Slutskaya and Cohen finished 1,2 in that segment.
    I agree but those short program results would have made no difference to the final overall outcome. The only change would have been Kostner winning the bronze more easily, and Suguri not being relatively close to the bronze anymore.

    Kostner had no international rep yet so no surprise she didnt get the scores she deserved in the short program.

    I always wondered how Suguri would have done at those Worlds with her Four Continents performances which were her best ever. Bronze easily obviously, but could she have even edged Cohen for silver? Could Yoshie Onda have even gotten the bronze at these Worlds with her flawless Four Continents performances, which ended up still losing her the spot on the World team to Fumie.

  19. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by irinayunafanatc View Post
    Apart from the qualifying round which barely counted for any points Kwan didnt have mistakes galore at the 2005 Worlds. All her competitors apart from Slutskaya and Cohen who had about the same number as she did. In the short she was clean. The long she had a two foot landing and fall. Slutskaya in the short had 2 mistakes and in the long gave up a whole 5 points which is more than a fall worth by doing a 3rd triple loop. Cohen had 2 minor mistakes in the short and problems on the landings of 3 different jumps. Both still scored way above Kwan. Kostner missed the last 3 jumps in her long program, two of them badly, and almost collapsed in exhaustion at the end, but got almost the same long program score as Kwan to hold her off for the bronze.

    Mistakes galore is what Arakawa did missing like 6 jumps over the short and long program as opposed to only 2 for Michelle. Yet her hot mess of a long program performance still got almost the same PCS as Kwan.
    I still think the QR counts for something as it was the biggest reason as to why she lost the bronze medal that season, and Kwan falling and double-footing is mistakes galore under Kwan's standards (she also had a messy landing on the end of her 3/2/2 combo). Anyway, did I say she did better than Irina and Sasha? No. I just said she did pretty well considering what she put out there. No need to talk about how Irina and Sasha did so much better because that wasn't the point of my post at all.

    Anyway, out of the top 13 in the LP, Kwan was the only one to get an automatic 1 point deduction for the fall, plus the prerequisite -3 off whatever score the judges would have given her otherwise. Kwan also almost scored 3 points higher than Arakawa in PCS…the same differential that Kwan had behind Cohen with that bore of a Bolero program. But none of this really matters because I'm just saying Kwan would not have been totally lost under COP as some posters have been trying to make it sound.
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 01-29-2014 at 05:35 AM.
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  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Didnt 2 judges place Maria over Kwan for 2nd place in the short at those Worlds though, and Kwan had a spectacular performance despite placing 2nd to Irina's superior technical performance. So atleast some of the judges were impressed by Maria's short. Then others werent with ordinals like 7th or 8th. It seems the judges had no idea what to do with her.

    I have never seen her short from those Worlds but I have heard all kinds of different testimonies which were as mixed as the judges placements. Some say she skated very well, not as well as she skated the same program when she handily won the short at Worlds the previous year, but still a top 3 performance. Others say she skated cautiously and not that well, but even those would probably have marked her above Hughes. Then one blog I read and a friend of mine who was at the event live said she was crawling, most of her elements were shaky and she should have been like 8th behind Suguri in the short program. So I have no idea what to assume about her performance. Not skating in the final flight with all the other contenders grouped there was obviously never going to be to her benefit.
    My $.02. Maria skated so slowly, scared and tentatively in the short program. It may have been the same program from the previous year but it was not the same assured, commanding performance. I was surprised how happy she was when she finished because she'd always been her toughest critic and it simply was not good despite being clean. Some people claimed Kwan doubled-footed her lutz in the short program which might be why Maria stole some ordinals. I believe Frank Carroll even asked her in the kiss and cry if she two-footed the jump and she categorically denied it. In real time, it looked two-footed. On replay, it looked clean. In real time I had 1) Slutskaya 2) Nikodinov 3)Suguri 4) Kwan 5) Volchkova 6) Butryskaya 7) Hughes. After I saw the real play and rewatched, I had it 1) Slutskaya 2) Kwan 3) Nikodinov and the rest the same.
    Last edited by fenway2; 01-29-2014 at 05:45 AM.

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