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  1. #21
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    Me too!
    I'm a big fan of her.Her aility to be women in girls is really something to watch.

  2. #22
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    Thank you so much for starting this thread. She is still one of my most favourite skaters. The people who hated her never understood just how much she gave to her skating. True feeling & honesty.
    Judgejudy27 you are so right about the NHK Trophy in 2000. I have that event on DVD & watch it many times. It was an awful result.
    Even when she skated really bad & made many errors Maria was still a skater you could not take your eyes away from.
    Her SP from the Worlds in Nice in 2000 is still one of the greatest SP's in history.
    Also her SP at the 2002 Europeans.
    Even thought I liked Slutskaya & loved Kwan I always felt the judges held maria back.
    It's a pity she never won an Olympic medal.
    Maria always skated better in SP's rather than the free skate.
    For me, my favourite free program she did in terms of choreography was the one she used at the 94' & 95' Europeans & the 94' Goodwill games.

  3. #23
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    Loved her toe point, but sometimes just wished she would soften her knees, especially on jump landings.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    Thank you so much for starting this thread. She is still one of my most favourite skaters. The people who hated her never understood just how much she gave to her skating. True feeling & honesty.
    Judgejudy27 you are so right about the NHK Trophy in 2000. I have that event on DVD & watch it many times. It was an awful result.
    Even when she skated really bad & made many errors Maria was still a skater you could not take your eyes away from.
    Her SP from the Worlds in Nice in 2000 is still one of the greatest SP's in history.
    Also her SP at the 2002 Europeans.
    Even thought I liked Slutskaya & loved Kwan I always felt the judges held maria back.
    It's a pity she never won an Olympic medal.
    Maria always skated better in SP's rather than the free skate.
    For me, my favourite free program she did in terms of choreography was the one she used at the 94' & 95' Europeans & the 94' Goodwill games.
    Have you seen that posted anywhere?
    Thanks in advance for any info.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    IMO, the turning point was before.
    She was not even considered as a gold favorite at 2000 Worlds (although she was the current World champ).
    When Irina went back in shape in 1999, Russian Fed decided that Slutskaya would be their favorite to beat Kwan.
    I agree going into 2000 Worlds Irina was possibly already Russian #1 again, however Maria was World Champion so they had to split the support. Remember Maria won the short program of those Worlds decisively, so it is obvious she still had a chance of being a gold medalist at that point.

    I would also like to say IMO Maria was totally robbed of the Olympic bronze in 1998. Even though Maria made mistakes and was far from her best that night, and even though Chen stood up most of her jumps which was amazing given her recent history, still with her series of stalked, barely rotated, or underrotated jumps and terrible spins I would have given Chen a 5.3 for technical merit. It was a purely sentimental medal choice IMO. I also thought Maria's artistic scores for her free skate were too low, even if her program was nothing like her performance to it at Europeans or the next years Worlds, it still was artistically better than a 5.5 or 5.6.

  6. #26
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    Maria looked much different when she was younger and the jumps were mostly
    still clunky

    but I did began appreciate her more as she got older, she was a late bloomer but she had wonderful skating, I agree she looked womanly not a girl skating on the ice, her short hair really suited her

  7. #27
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    Yep, and you and JJ have made the case. I would just be repeating you. 2000 NHK was a disgrace. But the entire skating world saw the wind go out of Maria's sails then and there. And then enter the 'gray mouse' who took the bronze at Worlds that year.

    As for 98 Olys, maybe she deserved it. Chen was UR and not spinning too well. But that is sport, had she done her Euros performance, she'd be an Olympic medalist. I still think she should have beaten Chen for the bronze, but it was a happy ending for Chen, so I don't mind. Chen deserved a hug on her way out with that medal.
    I will not be ignored! -Me

  8. #28

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    Plus, it's sort of validating to have the 3 previous World champions be the Olympic medalists.
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  9. #29

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    I appreciated the look of glamour and sophistication that Maria (and Olga Markova) brought to skating something that their more girlish looking contemporaries lacked.

    Whenever I look at Maria it appears that her legs are disproportionately long below the knee. I think when she bends her knee it doesn't bring her as close to the ice as say Yuka Sato. Her long legs do give her a very tall appearance and presence on the ice.

  10. #30

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    I've always loved Maria B, and was a big fan.
    Would not say she's underappreciated, though- she is a big star in Russia.
    improving my ballad- like lines

  11. #31

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    Although Butyrskaya was SERIOUSLY robbed at the 2000 NHK trophy, I don't believe she was really underappreciated. If anything, on this forum, I find her to be appreciated appropriately (over overappreciated by some).

    That said, I do think she wasn't given credit for the things she did well, like her brilliant camel spin and that Lutz and Loop. As a Kwan-fan, I learned to appreciate an excellent triple loop since I seldom got to see one from Kwan in her latter years.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  12. #32
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    There was a poll on this forum once asking who was better Suguri or Butyrskaya and Suguri won the poll. IMO that is underrating her. Suguri was never a contender for gold at the World level, absolutely never, Maria atleast was for 2.5 seasons. Maria of course did win a World title and won the short program at Worlds twice, Suguri never did either. Suguri couldnt even medal at the Olympics with her best performances, not even skating her best in a really poor Olympics in 2006. Butyrskaya was .1 from an Olympic medal even with skating about 60% of her potential in the LP at the 98 Olympics. Maria has many more grand prix event wins. Maria has atleast beaten Michelle Kwan twice (and was ahead of her after the short program about 8 times but rarely did well enough in the long to stay ahead), Suguri never did. Maria has in fact beaten Irina Slutskaya many times, Suguri did once at the 2004 Worlds when Irina was just coming off a life threatening illness in her first appearance back. Maria has done 7 triple programs, Suguri has not, Maria at her best was a 5.9 artistic skater, Suguri was not. And so on....

  13. #33

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    Maria was underappreciated by the judges and by her own fed.

  14. #34

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    Thanks for this thread and the videos of Butyrskaya. I liked her more for her image than her skating when she competed but this thread and video links have shown me that I under-appreciated her skating too!

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    There was a poll on this forum once asking who was better Suguri or Butyrskaya and Suguri won the poll. IMO that is underrating her. Suguri was never a contender for gold at the World level, absolutely never, Maria atleast was for 2.5 seasons. Maria of course did win a World title and won the short program at Worlds twice, Suguri never did either. Suguri couldnt even medal at the Olympics with her best performances, not even skating her best in a really poor Olympics in 2006. Butyrskaya was .1 from an Olympic medal even with skating about 60% of her potential in the LP at the 98 Olympics. Maria has many more grand prix event wins. Maria has atleast beaten Michelle Kwan twice (and was ahead of her after the short program about 8 times but rarely did well enough in the long to stay ahead), Suguri never did. Maria has in fact beaten Irina Slutskaya many times, Suguri did once at the 2004 Worlds when Irina was just coming off a life threatening illness in her first appearance back. Maria has done 7 triple programs, Suguri has not, Maria at her best was a 5.9 artistic skater, Suguri was not. And so on....
    You always find some way to get a dig in at Suguri.

    Ok, losing that poll nothwithstanding, have you see any blatant examples in which Maria hasn’t been appreciated? I find that every time she’s brought up, it’s usually in praise of her abilities and of what she brought into skating. There’s always someone bemoaning the fact that she never got what she deserved. The general perception is that she’s pretty much well-liked or even loved here, even if some do concede to her shortcomings as a skater. I'm one of those people because when Maria was on, I greatly preferred her to Slutskaya and Hughes (more Hughes than Slute).

    I find FSU polls are just subject to the wave of popularity going on at the moment and doesn't necessarily show off people's objective thinking. Some people might have preferred Suguri at the time due to emotional attachments or preferences in style (or her kick-ass edges and speed). That doesn't mean that they under-appreciated what Maria brought.

    I think a more interesting topic when discussing if a skater is truly underappreciated is if someone made one of Kimmie Meissner, Rachel Flatt, or Sarah Hughes. Those skaters are either reviled or just not thought about, thus a more lively conversation can take place to see if they are truly underappreciated by the fandom.
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 09-29-2012 at 11:44 PM.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    There was a poll on this forum once asking who was better Suguri or Butyrskaya and Suguri won the poll. IMO that is underrating her. Suguri was never a contender for gold at the World level, absolutely never, Maria atleast was for 2.5 seasons. Maria of course did win a World title and won the short program at Worlds twice, Suguri never did either. Suguri couldnt even medal at the Olympics with her best performances, not even skating her best in a really poor Olympics in 2006. Butyrskaya was .1 from an Olympic medal even with skating about 60% of her potential in the LP at the 98 Olympics. Maria has many more grand prix event wins. Maria has atleast beaten Michelle Kwan twice (and was ahead of her after the short program about 8 times but rarely did well enough in the long to stay ahead), Suguri never did. Maria has in fact beaten Irina Slutskaya many times, Suguri did once at the 2004 Worlds when Irina was just coming off a life threatening illness in her first appearance back. Maria has done 7 triple programs, Suguri has not, Maria at her best was a 5.9 artistic skater, Suguri was not. And so on....
    Overall I agree that Butyrskaya was better skater than Suguri but if I remember correctly Fumie did skate 7 triple program at 2003 ABC International Figure Skating Challenge where she should've won gold but the judges favoured flawed Kwan of course.

  17. #37
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    One commernt I still remember about Suguri was when she went to Lori Nichol, and an esteemed poster said basically "What's the point? It's like souping up a GEO car". I was never a fan of Suguri's. Let's not even talk toe point, she couldn't even straighten her LEGS!!! Flutz, no sal or loop, no flexibility. What were we supposed to like about Suguri? When she decided to skate to the Stones I was optimistic. Her Paint It Black was just Paint It Suck.

    Please, Suguri? Are you serious? Maria by a million miles.
    I will not be ignored! -Me

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    Overall I agree that Butyrskaya was better skater than Suguri but if I remember correctly Fumie did skate 7 triple program at 2003 ABC International Figure Skating Challenge where she should've won gold but the judges favoured flawed Kwan of course.
    True, I remember that event now. I thought Suguri only landed 6 triples though. Either way she landed only 1 more than Kwan who skated clean but doubled 1 of her planned triples. I agree Suguri probably should have won it over Kwan but it wasnt a slam dunk. It was just a stupid cheesefest anyway, and those USFSA sponsored cheesefests will always be won by a U.S skater unless they all bomb. I remember one year at the Masters (another stupid USFSA cheesefest) Irina skated a beautiful program to Schindlers list and did all her triples, and Kwan popped every single jump to a double or single and still won 2 of the 5 judges and nearly the event. They are there to entertain fans and make money so I was happy for them and didnt care about the judging, and I wish they still existed given the drop of interest in skating in NA.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Forrest View Post
    One commernt I still remember about Suguri was when she went to Lori Nichol, and an esteemed poster said basically "What's the point? It's like souping up a GEO car". I was never a fan of Suguri's. Let's not even talk toe point, she couldn't even straighten her LEGS!!! Flutz, no sal or loop, no flexibility. What were we supposed to like about Suguri? When she decided to skate to the Stones I was optimistic. Her Paint It Black was just Paint It Suck.

    Please, Suguri? Are you serious? Maria by a million miles.
    My favorite ever performance from Suguri was the one she won the GP final:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo7_cLG8oCI

    She skated similarily well at Worlds, I wonder what how the judges would have scored her vs Arakawa, Cohen, and Kwan had she not bombed qualifying, and been in contention for a medal (or the gold). I also loved her short program in 2002 when she skated well:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfIMDI7doWI

    and while it wasnt my favorite program, her best performance ever IMO was 2005 Four Continents LP:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX21Vo5LTKE

    Had she duplicated her 4CCs performances she might have won silver at Worlds that year, for sure atleast bronze. Yoshie Onda who lost the spot to Worlds to Fumie by losing to her there would have even won the bronze at Worlds that year with her same performances from there IMO. Those two really brought it and really wanted to go Worlds badly.


    I agree with your general assessments of her skating though. She was solid and consistent and good at capatilizing on others mistakes, hence her 3 world medals.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 09-30-2012 at 03:38 AM.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by aliceanne View Post
    Whenever I look at Maria it appears that her legs are disproportionately long below the knee. I think when she bends her knee it doesn't bring her as close to the ice as say Yuka Sato. Her long legs do give her a very tall appearance and presence on the ice.
    Part of the reason is she had no ankle flexion, thus she looked stiff in the legs which made her legs appear longer. I am kind of amazed she had the skating skills she did without really getting down in the knees and ankles.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  20. #40

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    I always liked her, especially when she dressed like a pink Big Bird and skated to Latin music. Otonal was nice too, elegant and mature, but I always like weird Eastern Bloc stuff.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 10-01-2012 at 05:34 AM.

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