The Japanese Skaters May Pull Out Of Cup Of China

[shine]

I am no expert in this, but I do think some opinions of China are based on stereotypes of its government, which is based on what is reported in the press. They think everything going on in China
Is some example of tyrany or government conspiracy.

Agreed.

An American journalist said North Korea was just like that. That's why he could repeatedly enter the county even though he was on some black lists. How similar those two countries sound.

[genegri]

I think the Chinese people have almost all of the responsibility. They're choosing a degree of submission (for the most part) because they want to live and are obviously happy enough with the status quo. In order to change things, they will need to risk their lives, literally, and they're choosing not to. Do you blame them? Would you risk your life, when you're content enough as it is? Would you have stood in front of the tanker at Tian'anmen? Would you protest without permission over something, knowing you would suffer for it?

The Chinese people obviously don't see themselves as oppressed as the rest of the world see them. They also have their own history - not that distant history - to compare their lives to; and they're doing comparatively well, or at least well enough for them. They make their choices, not because they're "big babies" but because they prioritise, the same as we would. The end result may or may not be different to what you or I would choose, but it's easier for us to talk hypothetically when we have a non-Chinese passport. I can leave whenever I want.

How true that is! Things have changed a lot in the past 20 years. 20 years ago when Tiananmen Square happened Chinese people trusted Western news much more than their own. That is no longer true in the least.

An interesting phenomenum which only started in recent years is overseas Chinese who have first hand experience and knowledge of living in US, Europe and other places are transferring that knowledge along with what they see and what they experience back to China. The information exchange between Chinese expat and Chinese natives are rapidly happening. I think those dialogs are also helping Chinese in China see through a lot of biases. Both in Chinese own media as well as in Western media. Sadly for the time being Westerners who have never lived in China do not have the same help to see through the biases in their own media.

The people you talk to are hardly representative of Chinese people as a whole, though.

You may be surprised to know but Chinese people do not live in a vacuum anymore. Those who are interested in the outside world are easily capable of getting informed, very well informed in fact. For starter, proxy is a common knowledge there and everyone is an expert.

Chinese has comprehensive international news reporting. It reports every topic you see here. Middle East conflicts, Arabic Spring (contrary to western belief, it was reported in China), EU economy, US election, you name it.

Now I do not agree with Chinese news censorship at all and I think it's high time for freedom of speech in China. But what I found is, even with censorship, Chinese news paints a picture of the outside world that is not that different from what you see. And my impression is Chinese people's views of the outside world is actually A LOT more accurate and less skewed than the outside views of Chinese lives, which are not as bad as some, for one reason or another, desperately want to believe. I wonder why.

China is an independent country. What goes on internally is up to its government and its people.

I agree. Chinese government exists because Chinese people allow it.

[Ziggy]

You may be surprised to know but Chinese people do not live in a vacuum anymore. Those who are interested in the outside world are easily capable of getting informed, very well informed in fact. For starter, proxy is a common knowledge there and everyone is an expert.

'Those who are interested in the outside world.' So basically a small proportion of educated, middle class Chinese citizens. I doubt that those were the ones protesting and rioting against Japan.

most Chinese people don't own computers, let alone have internet access, let alone know how to (and have the courage to) use proxies.

[Angelskates]

most Chinese people don't own computers, let alone have internet access, let alone know how to (and have the courage to) use proxies.

Is this a problem? Why?

Mikeko - I'd still like to know why you think the Chinese people are ignorant.

[mikeko]

Mikeko - I'd still like to know why you think the Chinese people are ignorant.

I said they CHOOSE to be ignorant. Those violent protesters were raising portraits of Mao Zedong. Why? While they attacked Japan for the atrocities committed more than 60 years ago, why did they praise the man who starved tens of millions of Chinese to death in the Great Leap Forward about ten years later? What does it have to do with Japan? Nothing. They were actually criticizing the current government, like "We used to be poor in Mao's era, but all were equally poor. Now fewer people get richer, and most us are getting poorer. Mao's era was better." If they really want to go back to Mao's era, so be it and they can know what real hunger feels like and another Cultural Revolution.

Those in their 20s grew up under the anti-Japan education installed after the Tiananmen Square protests, and belong to the one-child policy generation. They were spoiled by their parents and grand parents like little emperors all their lives. They have little patience and extremely materialistic. It was totally laughable to see them missing Mao's era.

[jlai]

Could someone move this to PI as it doesnt relate to original topic...

[genegri]

'Those who are interested in the outside world.' So basically a small proportion of educated, middle class Chinese citizens.

Almost 40% of Chinese population (including far reaching rural China) have internet access. That's not a very small portion. I don't know how "middle class" is defined in China but of course most Chinese don't make enough money to be considered middle class by Western standard.

The limiting factor is not "middle class" or "education" or "internet access". The limiting factor is interest. And of course only those who are interested will take time to dig deep and seek out multiple sources of information to try to see through biases and propaganda. Much like anywhere else.

I doubt that those were the ones protesting and rioting against Japan.

On the contrary, the better informed are the ones leading the protests. And the public sentiment is aligned with them. This is one of those issues that get relatively unanimous reactions from Chinese. It's not like only the uneducated are the ones who don't agree with you.

And this is exactly what is so different from 20 years ago. When Tiananmen square happened in 1989, everybody, the educated, progressive students, city dwellers, farmers, all were unanimously unhappy with the Chinese government.

It is not nearly true anymore today. The general public (by general public, I mean those who are not particularly interested in politics) opinions have turned less than 180 but more than 90 degrees. And among the traditionally progressive students and intellectuals opinions are very split.

The Chinese people have collectively made a decision and they are living it.

most Chinese people don't own computers, let alone have internet access, let alone know how to (and have the courage to) use proxies.

As I said about 40% (and increasing fast) Chinese have internet access, presumably more have computers. They don't need "courage" to use proxies. It's right there and everyone does it. Like speeding.

However my argument would be, they should not have needed proxies in the first place. The government should officially remove politic censorship. Not to mention it practically doesn't work anyway.

Those in their 20s grew up under the anti-Japan education installed after the Tiananmen Square protests, and belong to the one-child policy generation. They were spoiled by their parents and grand parents like little emperors all their lives. They have little patience and extremely materialistic.

Generalizing much?

It was totally laughable to see them missing Mao's era.

Do you seriously interpret them as missing Mao's era? They certainly are not missing Mao's era but they are pointing out that as bad as Mao's era was, there were certain things better than the current government. Chinese people's views on Mao are polar split. Not nearly as all praises as you seem to believe.

[victoriaheidi]

I keep thinking that there's new information about the skaters. Silly mistake.

[query5]

shouldn't do it, but as far as security, should not only provide security for japanese skaters but chinese as well.

people do carry hard feelings regarding politics.policies regarding their own government.

which carries over to political judging at competitions.
caroline zhang needs protectiion look at her Political scores.

still doing same old with caroline too bad. wouldn't cheat like other u.s. female ladies,

[Angelskates]

Those in their 20s grew up under the anti-Japan education installed after the Tiananmen Square protests, and belong to the one-child policy generation.

You think the "anti-Japanese education" was installed after the Tian'anmen square protests? That shows just how little you know.

mikeko - have you ever lived in China for a period of time? Have you ever spoken to anyone who lives here? How about those who lived through the times you're talking about?

All of those who are requesting this be moved to PI - you know all you have to do is ask a moderator, right? I'm not sure that posting it in here works...but you can definitely just PM a moderator and I'm sure they'd move it.

(There is already a thread in PI by the way, maybe the posters in this thread can't access it.)

FWIW I don't think the Japanese skaters will have any problems here, and I think if the JSF decides to pull out, it'll be a real shame, and a total political move (that will, of course, do nothing). There is no such thing as an iron-clad guarantee of safety (or anything else).

[barbk]

There is no such thing as an iron-clad guarantee of safety (or anything else).

Check out the Monitor and the Merrimac. Iron-cladding sometimes does work.

[leapfrogonice]

This is such a sad and volatile situation. Being able to "assure" security in an arena event would seem impossible to do.

[allezfred]

I think this thread has run its course. Hopefully the Japanese skaters will be at Cup of China, but until anything further is announced......