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  1. #81
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    Angelskates, you have every right to believe whatever you want to believe, but actually it does not matter whether you believe the articles or not. The thing is those unfortunate incidents were widely reported in Japan and that was bad enough to make people seriously worry about skaters' safety.

    Very sad situation, yes.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko View Post
    Bloomberg: Audi Asked China Dealership to Remove Anti-Japan Banner
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...ealership.html
    The banner at an Chinese Audi dealership reads, "Even if the whole of China is covered with tombs, [we] must kill all Japanese; even if no grass grows in China…."
    I don't know enough about the islands to say who they should belong to, but after having read The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang, I can understand China's current position. We are talking about fathers being forced to rape their daughters and sons their mothers, we're talking about babies being skewered like pieces of meat on barbecue sticks, we're talking about atrocities so heinous and unspeakable that they make the Nazis look almost humane in comparison. Reading the book, you'd think the extent of the crimes is exaggerated, but I have a Malaysian friend (an ethnic Chinese who's currently in the US) who reports that her grandfather's entire family was massacred and that he only survived because he fainted from being stabbed initially and his mother's body fell on top of him leading the Japanese to believe that they were all dead. Imagine the little boy's reaction when he finally came to...

    I do think that the resentment about Japan's wartime past has been festering for a long while, and that has played a large part in why China has been reacting so vigorously to this island dispute. I don't see how healing can take place when there are segments in Japan who deny the atrocities outright and when such history is merely glossed over in Japanese schools, if at all. Contrast this to Germany's response to its wartime history, which if I'm not mistaken criminalizes official positions like Japan's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    I don't believe free press exists, I think all media has its bias and agendas, but I think China reporting on this issue and Japan reporting on this issue have particular bias.
    This.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkaug View Post
    Has Russia decided if they will send KAWAGUCHI(& SMIRNOV) to COC or not?
    Or is it not even an issue for Russia why NOT to send her?
    bu isn't Kavaguti a Russian citizen ?
    that the same as comparing to Mirai

  4. #84
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    Leaving the political issues aside cause I'm no expert in that matter, I would like to write something about the skating situation.
    As we all know, Asada, Ando, Takahashi, Machida and Takahashi & Tran are assigned to compete in the Cup of China. If they don't attend that grand prix, how it will be? Will they be re-assigned to other event and the limit of competitors per discipline will be ignored? Or they will be left with just one grand prix and therefore their chances to qualify to grand prix final will be almost inexistent? Machida may not have many aspirations but the other japanese skaters do have them. If that's the case, I think it's bad for the sport cause the more competitive the better. Asada, Ando, Takahashi and T&T are all medalists from the world championships. Their names draw attention. Their presence makes the competition more interesting.
    I hate to see sport being affected by politics... But off course that I understand that the security of the athletes is sacred and if Japan doesn't want them to go then we must respect that decision. I don't believe that anybody in China who's a figure skating fan would like anything bad to happen but we must remember that the athletes won't be just in the ice arena. They will have to pass through airport, hotel, transportation, etc.

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrinalini View Post
    I don't know enough about the islands to say who they should belong to, but after having read The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang, I can understand China's current position. We are talking about fathers being forced to rape their daughters and sons their mothers, we're talking about babies being skewered like pieces of meat on barbecue sticks, we're talking about atrocities so heinous and unspeakable that they make the Nazis look almost humane in comparison. Reading the book, you'd think the extent of the crimes is exaggerated, but I have a Malaysian friend (an ethnic Chinese who's currently in the US) who reports that her grandfather's entire family was massacred and that he only survived because he fainted from being stabbed initially and his mother's body fell on top of him leading the Japanese to believe that they were all dead. Imagine the little boy's reaction when he finally came to...
    This was my late father's account: "Truckloads of Chinese men were herded onto trucks never to be seen again. Girls cut their hair short, tied down their breasts and dressed like boys to avoid being raped or taken as comfort women. Heads of 'traitors' were hung on poles in the central market place for everyone to see as warning. The Chinese targetted in particular, had strong links to China ie. most likely first/second generation Chinese in Malaysia. "
    My father and family were very very lucky. What IF part of my family were slaughtered? Would I be driving Japanese cars and loving Japanese food now? Honda, (up-market) Lexus and Toyota are very popular cars among Asians.
    I can understand the concerns of the Japanese athletes. Let the government deal with the problems. If we mix sports and arts with politics, we will never learn to understand and appreciate each other.

  6. #86
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    I hope all of these tensions die down. Its such a very sad situation

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by love_skate2011 View Post
    bu isn't Kavaguti a Russian citizen ?
    that the same as comparing to Mirai
    It's obviously the heritage that matters here.

    The mob (if there is one) is not going to bump into a Japanese at the airport or on the street, get out their bricks and then say, "oh wait, this Japanese girl represents US / Russia! Oops sorry please go".

    Those who know they represent another coutnry are skating fans and are hopefully more sane.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by love_skate2011 View Post
    bu isn't Kavaguti a Russian citizen ?
    that the same as comparing to Mirai
    She physically looks a lot more Japanese than Russian.
    I spelled her KAWAGUCHI instead of KAVAGUTI because she used to be a Japanese citizen and that's what matters to them.

  9. #89
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    To clarify: Mirai claims to hold dual citizenship in the US and Japan. She is 19, and the cutoff age is 20 or 22. Accordingly, Mirai is a Japanese citizen and, if JSF has a concern, she should hear it out.

  10. #90
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    I hope this can be resolved before November, but it's looking more and more that instead of using common sense to resolve something, pride has kicked in and that in turn has enflamed into something beyond scary. As someone already said, China take one island and Japan take one island and enjoy the oil/gas/whatever you both equally reap from it.

    That however would be common sense and God forbid that should ever come into play these days.

    As for the Japanese skaters and any other skaters who are of Japanese descent, we're talking about the safety of human beings here who just happen to skate. Isn't their safety more important than anything else? Try telling someone who's a zealot and after any kind of Japanese person that Mirai or Yuka are not Japanese citizens and you'll be talking to a brick wall. We also know those kinds of people will do whatever they feel "right" to them in order to forward their "cause". There's far too much evidence of that from the Middle East and also in New York City sadly.

    I feel awful this is even being talked about, but if there are legitimate concerns about the safety of Japanese athletes of any kind of sport going to China right now, then they should stay home. We've still got about a month and a half to go, so we can hope things will calm down between now and then, but this does need to be discussed in case it doesn't calm down and there's a Plan B in place for those athletes/Federation to have.

    I really do hope things calm down. There's so much going on around the World right now that could have been resolved by simple respect, common sense and taking responsblity for actions of the past that it just out and out saddens me.

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by AragornElessar View Post
    I really do hope things calm down.
    Things have calmed down. The protests have ended, as far as demonstrations etc. by the people. The governments will continue to "protest" as they have done for years.

    No one's safety can ever be guaranteed, anywhere at any time. There are crazies everywhere.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    I don't believe free press exists, I think all media has its bias and agendas, but I think China reporting on this issue and Japan reporting on this issue have particular bias. Japan has certain mis-reported some historical issues in the past (through text books, as you probably know), as has China.

    misskarne, I don't believe I ever claimed to be non-bias. I don't have a "side" on the island issue - I don't know enough of the history, but I also have stated that I don't believe violence is ever the solution. In fact, given the history between these two countries, I don't think they'll ever have a good relationship, but I don't believe attacking individuals of any nationality is acceptable. I am not Chinese, but I do believe that western media tends to favour the non-Chinese "side" in most issues, and that some people are anti-China before looking at the issues from multiple sources; in general people don't believe the Chinese press merely because it's the Chinese press. I don't find the Chinese press more biased than any other press most of the time, but I always try and check multiple sources.

    I think that people thinking Japanese skaters will be unsafe is an overreaction. The protests are over for starters, the majority of people don't know who they are, and those who do know they are, support skating.
    A free press does not mean "unbiased". A free press means it's not being controlled by the government and that it can print what it wants without fear of being hurt (censored, jailed, killed, etc) for it.

    There's likely no completely free press because of various censorship and secrecy laws worldwide, but some presses are more free than others.
    The Junior Grand Prix: Where skaters who "come out of nowhere" come from.

  13. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    Things have calmed down. The protests have ended, as far as demonstrations etc. by the people. The governments will continue to "protest" as they have done for years.

    No one's safety can ever be guaranteed, anywhere at any time. There are crazies everywhere.
    Things LOOK to have calmed down because the CCP government has tightened their control again after they decided that its people had "vented" enough. The Internet is censored in China, and the government is now removing every message that can provoke violence. The CCP will let them loose and explode again when they decide that its people need to "vent".
    Last edited by mikeko; 09-27-2012 at 01:37 PM.

  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko View Post
    Things LOOK to have calmed down because the CCP government has tightened their control again after they decided that its people had "vented" enough. The Internet is censured in China, and the government is now removing every message that can provoke violence. The CCP will let them loose and explode again when they decide that its people need to "vent".
    You give the Chinese government too much credit, and the Chinese people, not enough. Do you really believe the Chinese who use the Internet can't get passed the censors? Because they're the ones who told me how to. Do you really think the Chinese people don't know what's going on? I have no love for the CCP, but the Chinese people, they're intelligent people, they can read the world news too. They can google (or baidu). They can get passed the censors. They know what's going on.

    The Chinese government has so much power because the rest of the world lets it have power. The Chinese people? They give and take...they can get past the censors, but some don't feel the need. They can speak out, but some don't want to risk it. In order for things to change here, SO much needs to change internationally, but internally, people will have to die. A lot of people. So it stays the same. But it is their choice, and I understand it. But people do know what's going on, both in China and around the world; if they want to. The Chinese people allow their government to have control, knowingly.

    Just because a person agrees with the CCP on something (like maybe ownership of these islands) doesn't mean they haven't formed their own opinions.
    Last edited by Angelskates; 09-27-2012 at 01:47 PM.

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    The Chinese government has so much power because the rest of the world lets it have power. The Chinese people? They give and take...they can get past the censors, but some don't feel the need. They can speak out, but some don't want to risk it. In order for things to change here, SO much needs to change internationally, but internally, people will have to die. A lot of people. So it stays the same. But it is their choice, and I understand it. But people do know what's going on, both in China and around the world; if they want to. The Chinese people allow their government to have control, knowingly.
    What kind of logic is this? You are blaming the rest of the world for what the PRC is today? Are you saying the Chinese have no responsibility? Are they a bunch of big babies?

    It makes no difference if they are intelligent enough to know what's happening or not when they CHOOSE to be ignorant.

  16. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko View Post
    What kind of logic is this? You are blaming the rest of the world for what the PRC is today? Are you saying the Chinese have no responsibility? Are they a bunch of big babies?

    It makes no difference if they are intelligent enough to know what's happening or not when they choose to be ignorant.
    I'm not blaming the rest of the world (though I do think the rest of the world allows China to bully them). I do think China has too much power worldwide.

    I think the Chinese people have almost all of the responsibility. They're choosing a degree of submission (for the most part) because they want to live and are obviously happy enough with the status quo. In order to change things, they will need to risk their lives, literally, and they're choosing not to. Do you blame them? Would you risk your life, when you're content enough as it is? Would you have stood in front of the tanker at Tian'anmen? Would you protest without permission over something, knowing you would suffer for it?

    The Chinese people obviously don't see themselves as oppressed as the rest of the world see them. They also have their own history - not that distant history - to compare their lives to; and they're doing comparatively well, or at least well enough for them. They make their choices, not because they're "big babies" but because they prioritise, the same as we would. The end result may or may not be different to what you or I would choose, but it's easier for us to talk hypothetically when we have a non-Chinese passport. I can leave whenever I want.

    Why do you think the Chinese people are ignorant?

  17. #97
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    I am no expert in this, but I do think some opinions of China are based on stereotypes of its government, which is based on what is reported in the press. They think everything going on in China
    Is some example of tyrany or government conspiracy.

    While I think some of it is true, I believe the Chinese gocernment just isnt that efficient

  18. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlai View Post
    I am no expert in this, but I do think some opinions of China are based on stereotypes of its government, which is based on what is reported in the press. They think everything going on in China
    Is some example of tyrany or government conspiracy.

    While I think some of it is true, I believe the Chinese gocernment just isnt that efficient
    Ain't that the truth! (The different levels and departments never talk to each other, for one thing! It drives me insane as a small, small business owner!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    Ain't that the truth! (The different levels and departments never talk to each other, for one thing! )
    An American journalist said North Korea was just like that. That's why he could repeatedly enter the county even though he was on some black lists. How similar those two countries sound.
    Last edited by mikeko; 09-27-2012 at 03:36 PM.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    You give the Chinese government too much credit, and the Chinese people, not enough. Do you really believe the Chinese who use the Internet can't get passed the censors? Because they're the ones who told me how to. Do you really think the Chinese people don't know what's going on? I have no love for the CCP, but the Chinese people, they're intelligent people, they can read the world news too. They can google (or baidu). They can get passed the censors. They know what's going on.
    The people you talk to are hardly representative of Chinese people as a whole, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    The Chinese government has so much power because the rest of the world lets it have power.
    China is an independent country. What goes on internally is up to its government and its people.

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