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  1. #1

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    Wink It's better to fall on a L2 step sequence than L3!

    I came across a stupid quirk in the scale of values. I thought they had ironed those out by now, but in the 2012-2013 scale of values a level 2 step sequence with -2 and -3 GOE is worth 2.0 and 1.7 points, respectively, and for a level 3 step sequence they are worth 1.9 and 1.2 points, respectively. If they changed the step negative GOEs from -0.7 to -0.5 for the level 3 then things would make sense, because it would be worth at least as much as a level 2 for all GOEs but not more than a level 4.

    http://www.usfsa.org/content/2012-13...f%20Values.pdf

    It also used to be the case that a double axel with a -3 GOE got more points than a triple toe with a -3 GOE, but that was changed several years ago.

    I can imagine a skater now who happened to fall on a level 3 step sequence and miss out on a win or a medal by a very slim marging filing a protest to get his/her step sequence downgraded to a level 2.

    That link does say "Subject to 54th ISU Congress decisions," does anyone know if the Congress has updated this error since?

    P.S., I wasn't sure if this should go here or in Great Skate Debate. Mods, please move if you think it belongs in GSD.

  2. #2

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    I think it really belongs in the ISU Technical Committee's in-basket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    I think it really belongs in the ISU Technical Committee's in-basket.
    Good point. I was thinking it might get around to them eventually and it's the kind of the George Rossano or Sonia Bianchetti might pick up on, but I suppose I could try contact them directly. On the contact page there's only one form for all emails to the ISU, but I guess it's worth a try!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    I can imagine a skater now who happened to fall on a level 3 step sequence and miss out on a win or a medal by a very slim marging filing a protest to get his/her step sequence downgraded to a level 2.
    Are protests allowed? (genuinely curious)

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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    Are protests allowed? (genuinely curious)
    Yes, but I don't think there's ever been any successful protests?

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    Genuine question: If you fell in the middle of a level 3 step sequence, could you even *get* a level 3 on it? Wouldn't that automatically drop it to a 1 or 2? Or would it just be level 3 with -3 GOE?
    BARK LESS. WAG MORE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    Are protests allowed? (genuinely curious)
    Yes protests are allowed but they really should be done before the presentations. Because results are only provisional until the presentations. After the presentation the results stand.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    In theory you could get level 3 or 4 on a step sequence with a fall, assuming you met the criteria for all the features before and/or after the fall. More likely to happen with a fall at the end of the step sequence than a fall in the middle of the sequence.

    E.g., when Patrick Chan fell in his step sequence at 2010 Skate Canada, it was called as level 2. At other competitions that season it was level 4.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Yes protests are allowed but they really should be done before the presentations. Because results are only provisional until the presentations. After the presentation the results stand.
    Do you mean the medal ceremony? How would this even be possible, because would the skaters and coaches have access to a detailed score, before the medal ceremony, to make sure they are correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    How would this even be possible, because would the skaters and coaches have access to a detailed score, before the medal ceremony, to make sure they are correct?
    The journalists have access to the protocols straight away (after each skater's performance) so of course that skaters and coaches do as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    Do you mean the medal ceremony? How would this even be possible, because would the skaters and coaches have access to a detailed score, before the medal ceremony, to make sure they are correct?
    Yes before the medal ceremony. The skaters can see the scores as they appear like we do but I don't think they get access to the protocols. Those are not usually printed off and uploaded until after the event. So I wouldn't assume skaters and coaches have access to them just because the commentators do. Unless there is someone here who has worked at a major event and can give us an insight.

    I know with our competitions skaters don't get to see them until after they have been posted on the website and that is after the competition is over and medals have been presented.

    Also Technical Controllers and Referees go through them and sign them off before the presentations.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    ^Last time I competed at nationals, there was a computer near where you went on the ice and you were able to see your protocols immediately after you skated.

  13. #13

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    Thanks Spaz. Was that the full protocol with all the judges scores? Just interested in what they showed you.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    Yup, the same thing that gets posted after the event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    Are protests allowed? (genuinely curious)
    So-called "field of play" decisions, such as levels or "falls," can not be protested. More straight-forward applications of rules, such as what element was performed or whether the correct scale-of-values were used, are considered "human errors" and can be protested, but only by the skater/team themselves or their credentialed coach prior to the presentation of awards. For example, if the skater did a 3A and the protocol reads 2A, that can be protested. Time bonus is typically protested when it doesn't appear on the protocol at all; I've only seen one successful protest of when the time bonus kicked in (i.e., was element 6 before or after the halfway mark?) and it involved the final spot on an Olympic team (coach was correct; skater deserved the time bonus, although it did not make a difference in the final standings once the entire flight had skated).

    Two keys are:
    1) "prior to the presentation of awards," which can be difficult at a Regional or Sectional championships in which the protocols are (generally) not immediately accessible to competitors the way that they are at U.S./Canadian Nationals and most major internationals
    2) "only by the skater or coach," not by the coach of another skater in the group. The tricky part here is that the technical panel (TS, ATS, TC, Data, referee) can also raise questions after the event is finished/before awards are presented... so if you're the technical controller for a given event and the coach of a competitor catches you in the line for the bathroom and shoves the protocol under your nose to prove that another skater got credit for two 3-jump combinations when they're only allowed to do one 3-jump combination: what do you do? The other coach can't file a formal protest, but now you know, and you're eligible to initiate a protest as the TC.

    ETA: post-event error protocol for USFSA competitions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spazactaz View Post
    ^Last time I competed at nationals, there was a computer near where you went on the ice and you were able to see your protocols immediately after you skated.
    I imagine that is what happens at every major competition.

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    5Ali3, do you know whether/how judges can question a call if what they see on their screen doesn't match what they saw on the ice?

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    Some errors that I can remember are last year at Pacific Coast Sectionals, Kevin Shum initially getting credit for a triple-triple combination in the short program when it was not allowed. I don't know who initiated the protest into that one, but it was later asterisked out and didn't affect his overall result.

    At South Atlantics a few years ago I believe the intermediate results were factored incorrectly which made a difference in who qualified to Junior Nationals, so an extra two skaters (I think) ended up being sent.

    At one international competition, maybe it was even the Olympics, I remember that one of Hinzmann & Parchem's throws was mis-identified and it was corrected.

    Then there was the error with ice dance FD lift factoring last season that the ISU admitted to later that would have caused Virtue & Moir to move ahead in the free dance at the GPF but not overall. It had been applied incorrectly all season up to that point but wouldn't have affected the overall medals of any major international competitions AFAIK (I did check competitions where the results were really close ). The actual GPF scores were not changed.

    Also, there was the infamous Junior Pairs SP results mess from Nationals last year. I do know the story behind that one and it is pretty amusing to hear after the fact, even though it was stressful for all involved. There was also some kind of error in the Junior SD scoring at Nationals the year before that. Both were obviously corrected.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    5Ali3, do you know whether/how judges can question a call if what they see on their screen doesn't match what they saw on the ice?
    You ask the question through the referee who then asks the Tech Controller.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    5Ali3, do you know whether/how judges can question a call if what they see on their screen doesn't match what they saw on the ice?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    You ask the question through the referee who then asks the Tech Controller.
    What Aussie Willy said, with the added initial step of "pull on your flame retardant underwear first."

    I'm kidding - although only slightly - and technically, I believe that judges aren't allowed to question calls at all.

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