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  1. #861
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    ^^ Well I think the changes in the sport have outgrown the way its presently structured in terms of country-based, political-based World team selections, rather than allowing all skaters to rise on the basis of their talent regardless of country affiliation.

    It does seem that USFS constantly sending different men skaters every year to Worlds is not gonna help any of them build confidence and momentum.

  2. #862
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    Max has 2 GPs for sure for next season which is great, Ross does not. I just hope the USFS is smart and 1.) does not hold back Jason Brown on the JGP again to help get Miner a second GP and Rippon a 1st or 2nd and 2.) politiks for Farris to get 2 GPs before Miner and Rippon because he's been more consistent this season honestly and crushed Rippon's SB and Miner's last two international scores considerably with the numbers put up by his JW win. Just take a chance and go with the young guys who deliver for once - certainly panned out for Max Aaron.

    I agree the damage isn't permanent or too severe for Ross, he's still just 22 and he can do well when he delivers - it likely just means he won't be getting PCS favors at Nationals next year which quite frankly is a good thing. I think he had the SOHL in the FS at NHK and the USFS got excited about that - it's understandable, but one good program at one good competition does not a skater make, they need to be better about looking at the whole picture and how these guys are scored and viewed internationally - both when they deliver and when they don't. Placing in the top 6 was going to be a big ask for any of the guys and only a clean Jeremy could have likely managed it. Farris or Dornbush would have likely done better but it wouldn't been enough for 3 spots and Ross not doing so well here combined with their good showings at JW and 4CC are likely to play in their favor anyways in terms of GP selection and heading into Nationals and the Olympics next year. On another note quad mayhem may be on it's way out so perhaps the US can have a "star" emerge in the coming years that won't need to be able to rattle off 4 quads per competition to be in the mix. It will be interesting to see, that's for sure. Oh, and I hope people give Max a break regarding his artistry, his component marks are very respectable and I'm sure he'll continue to work on improving that side of his skating, but for the meantime, it's just fine.
    Well said, Pinky

    Quote Originally Posted by centerpt1 View Post
    Max did very well for himself. It's only up from here, right? I wish he would find a different coach, though.

    I thought Ross would be top 10. Surprised. It has to be tough to go through that.

    Selecting a World team in January is always a crap shoot. How can you tell who will be skating well in March?

    Jeremy might have been recovered and back on his quad in the short by March. Or not. We'll never know.
    Bold mine.

    This is why the USFSA really needs to come up with a different system for selecting the team for all 4 disciplines. The winner take all mentality is less effective with CoP than it was under 6.0. I say use Nationals of course, but maybe the USFSA can establish a formula that figures a skaters' results from the previous Fall's international competitions and factor that all into a 'grand score' after Nationals. Then if there are 2 skaters extremely close for the 2nd (or 3rd) spot, send those skaters to 4CC's for a skate-off. I think a selection process that spans over a period of time captures those skaters that are much more consistent.

    And also beef up the USFSA injury monitoring process.
    Last edited by olympic; 03-16-2013 at 01:24 PM.

  3. #863

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    Last few posts summed up:

    "My favourite was too much of a headcase (again) to make the Worlds team! NEW SELECTION SYSTEM NOW!"

  4. #864

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    I think it's always going to be a crapshoot. Russia didn't go by its Nationals results either, and that blew up in their face, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    It's too sad to think that Jeremy going to Worlds in 2011 might have saved the third spot in the first place and then with an extra guy on the team in 2012, it might have taken some pressure off of Adam and Jeremy. Who knows, but maybe had Jeremy gone to Worlds these last 3 years, he'd be stronger mentally. Not going to Worlds this year and seeing the results is probably more deflating for Jeremy than for anyone else. But again, it's not Max's nor Ross' fault or responsibility.
    I'm still scratching my head at why people think Jeremy going to 2011 Worlds would have saved that third spot.

    If I remember correctly, Ricky was 9th, Ross 11th and Bradley buried even further down. Jeremy would have needed 3rd or better to save the third spot (because Ricky would have been bumped to 10th place... 10+3=13). The odds of Jeremy attaining 3rd were as long as any other scenario out there. First of all, his track record at the marquis events is not great. Moreover, at that event Chan and Kozuka skated lights out and were not going to be beaten. Hometown boy Gachinski also skated quite well with a quad and was not going to be passed in Moscow.

    Basically we were pretty much screwed, no matter what.
    "Marge, if you're going to get mad at me every time I do something stupid, then I guess I'm just going to have to stop doing stupid things!" - Homer Simpson in the Mr. Plow episode

  5. #865
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    I think the standard is just really high right now, and there's too much BS reputation scoring going on for certain skaters so for someone like Ross, sending them to Worlds and expecting him to help bring back 3 spots is a tall order. Max skated about as well as he could and was 7th. Ross would have needed to have been 6th to get the 3rd spot back, and only then just barely. Even if he skated 2 clean programs that might not have happened because Takahashi's total score was 5 points higher than what Ross scored at NHK with his perfect FS. Plus with the way the judging was last night it's too hard to predict how a clean Ross would have been marked anyways. He should have just been focusing on skating the best he could do, not worrying about 3 spots knowing the field is stacked and the judging system is questionable and yada yada.

    I still think the judging was questionable at Nats and Ross benefitted from it but after what happened at 4CCs you could see Ross was rattled which speaks to having a 2 competition selection process like other Nations do, see who can handle the pressure better and skate overall better at 2 competitions (Nats and 4CC). So yes, Dornbush and Farris did a lot better at 4CC and JW than Ross did at Worlds - but they also didn't have a lot of pressure, so maybe getting sent to 4CCs and being told it's a skate-off, the result would be different. When all is said and done I think basing team selections on the results of one competition under COP isn't a great idea. Any way you slice it, it's a crapshoot, but having a skate-off at an ISU event does help matters by putting skaters under pressure again and seeing how an international panel responds to their efforts. Then you take that and Nationals and make the best decision.

  6. #866
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Last few posts summed up:

    "My favourite was too much of a headcase (again) to make the Worlds team! NEW SELECTION SYSTEM NOW!"
    FTR, not my post. I tend to gravitate towards Ricky, but I don't have a favorite.

  7. #867
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    What the US lacks right now is a skater who can consistently get into the top 4 internationally. Skaters like Aaron, Dornbush and Minor are good enough to get into the top 8 but we need a real star who's a threat to get on the podium at least and who won't bomb or have a meltdown.

  8. #868

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    Ross' last name is spelled Miner.

    "Rome wasn't built in a day." There are good young prospects in the pipeline, as we all know. Let them develop at their own natural pace and let's not shove them into the Worlds spotlight until they have the tools -- both physical and mental -- to deal with the pressure. Kudos to Max Aaron for successfully dealing with the pressure this week in his Worlds debut in London!
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  9. #869

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    What the US lacks right now is a skater who can consistently get into the top 4 internationally. Skaters like Aaron, Dornbush and Minor are good enough to get into the top 8 but we need a real star who's a threat to get on the podium at least and who won't bomb or have a meltdown.
    We got spoiled with Lysacek. During the time frame from the 2006 Olympics to the 2010 Olympics, he earned a medal at every international event except the 2006 Olympics (4th) and the 2007 World Championship (5th). Some may argue that Lysacek was just lucky. However, he consistently delivered when it counted at the major international competitions.

    Give the other skaters time to develop. Lysacek was not always a consistent competitor. That developed over time.
    Last edited by SkateFan66; 03-16-2013 at 04:49 PM.

  10. #870
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Ross' last name is spelled Miner.

    "Rome wasn't built in a day." There are good young prospects in the pipeline, as we all know. Let them develop at their own natural pace and let's not shove them into the Worlds spotlight until they have the tools -- both physical and mental -- to deal with the pressure. Kudos to Max Aaron for successfully dealing with the pressure this week in his Worlds debut in London!
    I agree Sylvia, but part of the problem is that since the US doesn't have a star, the young inexperienced skaters get shoved into the Worlds spotlight, ready or not.

  11. #871

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    I agree Sylvia, but part of the problem is that since the US doesn't have a star, the young inexperienced skaters get shoved into the Worlds spotlight, ready or not.
    Such as?

    Placement at their first Worlds (among the men who competed at 2013 Nationals):
    Aaron 7th in 2013
    Dornbush 9th in 2011
    Miner 11th in 2011
    Rippon 6th in 2010
    Mroz 9th in 2009
    Carriere 10th in 2008
    Abbott 11th in 2008

    ETA: I would say all the rookies had solid debuts except for Abbott, placement-wise, who went as an alternate and the 3rd man (he landed 4T+2T in SP and 4T in FS but had problems with his three 3A attempts).
    Last edited by Sylvia; 03-16-2013 at 06:02 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  12. #872
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    I think Ross is a good type of skater for the 3rd mens spot on World Teams if we had it, and Max is a good pick for the 2nd spot. Problem is, we need a solid 1st team member pick which we don't have right now, someone who should be good to place in the top 5 and can challenge for a medal/win on a good day (If Abbott could deliver consistently, he could be that, and Lysacek used to be that, but given their respective ages and the scoring of Babou and technical unraveling of Dai witnessed last night, I'm not too hopeful about Abbott or Lysacek becoming a strong 1st World/Olympic Team member pick before their respective retirements, which will probably occur pretty soon, at this point). So I guess it's just a game of wait and see now. I think Josh Farris shows promise and was arguably the most consistent US man this season, and I think he could have made his mark at these Worlds, but realistically, skating his best would be about 9th or 10th place, so definitely not good enough for 3 spots, and look what good that did Richard Dornbush back in 2011 ...none whatsoever despite his skating and scoring remarkably well for a teenage newbie at his first Worlds. So in the end, we're just in transition right now.

    C'est a la via. Will say though that I'm mighty impressed Nathan Chen is still in the top 24 SB list . The future could be arriving sooner than we think, I mean, look at the amazing ascent of Denis Ten! Or even Fernandez who was nothing too too special just two seasons ago.

  13. #873

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFan66 View Post
    We got spoiled with Lysacek. During the time frame from the 2006 Olympics to the 2010 Olympics, he earned a medal at every international event except the 2006 Olympics (4th) and the 2007 World Championship (5th). Some may argue that Lysacek was just lucky. However, he consistently delivered when it counted at the major international competitions.
    We were spoiled by Weir too. Not a lot of World/Olympic podium placements, but he never finished lower than 8th at those events, and helped us get 3 spots quite a few times.
    "Marge, if you're going to get mad at me every time I do something stupid, then I guess I'm just going to have to stop doing stupid things!" - Homer Simpson in the Mr. Plow episode

  14. #874

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    Well, I think we can all agree that the GP this fall will definitely be for the U.S. men. If I was going to make prediction on who makes the team based on what I see right now, it would be Aaron & Farris/Dornbush. Maybe Brown is in the mix. As much as I like Jeremy's skating, I think that he isn't going to be given the benefit of doubt if he makes mistakes at Nationals.

  15. #875

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    If Lysacek shows up at Nationals, he's going to get an Olympic slot-no matter how he really skates.

    So there's one Olympic slot for the rest......I bet it's Aaron.

  16. #876
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    I think we'll see Max repeat as National Champion in 2014. I expect him to incorporate his quad salchow into next year's program. The rest of the Americans will be playing catch-up. Abbott can't deal with pressure & as much as I like him, Rippon is questionable. Dornbush is tough & determined & Miner needs to work more on a consistent quad. As for Farris & Brown if they develop consistent quads (at least 1 in the long) they'll have a shot at making the Olympic team. I haven't totally given up on Carriere & will be watching the summer & fall competitions just as I did last year for him & Max to see if he is progressing or regressing. I'll reserve judgment on Evan until I see him again in competition.
    I was thrilled with Max & his 7th place result. I'm still laughing at his hitting the boards & instead of falling he dug his left skate into the ice & pushed off. Didn't seem to faze him. Remarkable!

  17. #877
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    Quote Originally Posted by centerpt1 View Post
    If Lysacek shows up at Nationals, he's going to get an Olympic slot-no matter how he really skates.

    So there's one Olympic slot for the rest......I bet it's Aaron.
    I don't think so, not without a quad and not without skating really, really well. Think back to Sasha Cohen in 2010..Firstly, I don't think Evan will be coming back, and secondly, if he does, I don't think he's a lock for the team, though he could make it. He never really had a quad to speak of in his prime and his 3a is not of very good quality either. Plus it seems the past generation is getting a little bit dumped...Joubert, with quads, down in 9th, Takahashi down in 6th after missing jumps but more importantly with PCS below not only a Chan meltdown but also Ten and a good-but-not-great Fernandez. Make of that what you will.

    If we see the men ease up on the quads internationally next season, then Abbott and Brown probably have decent odds to make the team, they'd probably just need to be trying one in the FS and might even be able to afford a fall if it's rotated (Jason) and maybe even if it's not (Jeremy).

    If quad is still a really big factor, the team will probably be Aaron and either Dornbush or Farris. Dornbush needs to stop popping his 3a so much and work on avoiding silly mistakes in the SP, Farris has a great 3a and 3a-3t and seems to be getting closer on his quad attempts, if he can start landing them more often than not come next season and keep up the consistency on his other jumps, he may be the smartest pick. Right now the quad is usually a splat, albeit rotated, but he probably has the best 3a in the field right now and seems to be able to pull out the rest of his jumps well most of the time even when he does crash on the 4t. If I were him, I'd leave it out of the SP next season, he's always been a strong SP skater and his ability to get level 4s on all his spins and footwork combined with the quality of his 3a make it less crucial for him in the SP. Plus in seniors he could do a 3lo as his solo jump if he's worried about getting called for lipping, his 3lo is one of his best jumps anyway. Then in the FS a layout where he could try for two 4t, if he lands the first, and just one if he falls on the first, might be smart, or if the 4t is more miss than hit still, he could try for 3a-3t or even both 3a in the bonus. Dornbush I assume will keep trying the 4t in the SP along with his optional two or one (but usually two) 4ts in the FS. If he can hit the quads most of the time and keep the other mistakes to a minimum, he's probably the strongest pick for the 2nd spot, and maybe could even overtake Aaron for the 1st.

    Miner, Rippon, Johnson, and Mahbanoozadeh could find themselves in the mix but I don't think they'll be receiving any reputation bonuses at Nationals next year and I don't think they are going to be who the USFS is focused on leading up to Nationals/the Olympics. And then obviously, they will need to have the 3a secured and be at least going for the 4t, likely with some success and full-rotation credit, to be in the shakeup.

    I do think that, now that the results of the season are in, that things have shifted from Abbott and Miner seeming like the likely Olympic team to Aaron and Dornbush/Farris (probably mostly Dornbush as USFS likely wants to push for Farris to really peak for 2018 and may be prone to hold him back a bit for now, although he did win pewter at Nats with scores right up with the top 3, and is JWC. So we shall see.) And I do think a team of two of those three guys would have decent odds at getting back a 3rd spot, maybe not next season and it could even take a few years, but after all the post-Sochi retirements, a dynamic, consistent jumper like Max along with well-rounded skaters who are balanced technically and performance wise/artistically like Richard and Joshua should be the type of skaters who could be placing in the top 5-7 at Worlds and challenging for medals on a good day (barring onset of headcase-ness, injury, illness, quitting, even higher technical expectations, etc.) And there is a lot of talent coming up through the ranks too in Omori, Chen, Ma, and Zhou. Plus Jason Brown seems a lot steadier with the 3a now and has already come into his own artistically at 18.
    Last edited by pinky166; 03-16-2013 at 07:58 PM.

  18. #878
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Such as?

    Placement at their first Worlds (among the men who competed at 2013 Nationals):
    Aaron 7th in 2013
    Dornbush 9th in 2011
    Miner 11th in 2011
    Rippon 6th in 2010
    Mroz 9th in 2009
    Carriere 10th in 2008
    Abbott 11th in 2008

    ETA: I would say all the rookies had solid debuts except for Abbott, placement-wise, who went as an alternate and the 3rd man (he landed 4T+2T in SP and 4T in FS but had problems with his three 3A attempts).
    Solid debuts. Definitely. But recently it has been the rookies leading the charge (Dornbush and Miner - '11) (Aaron - '13) and thus they are the ones with a heavy burden to deliver subsequent great performances.

  19. #879

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    USFS posted their Gardena Spring Trophy (April 1-3) entries on their site today: http://www.usfigureskating.org/Athletes.asp?id=216
    5 men are going to Italy:
    Senior - Adam Rippon, Brandon Mroz
    Junior - Jimmy Ma (J4), Jordan Moeller (J5)
    Novice - Vincent Zhou (J1)
    It will be the international debut for Ma, Moeller, and Zhou.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  20. #880
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    ^I love the fact that the US is sending notable skaters to these competitions (don't they normally skip them?). I hope they do well.

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