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  1. #621
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    I still don't get why Jeremy didn't do a 3 jump combo. Was he not planning to do one? He left 2 points on the table by not adding another double toe onto one of his combinations. That 2 points for the omitted double toe would have given him enough for second place and the world team. Jeremy Abbott is sitting at home instead of going to worlds because he forgot/ didn't plan to do a double toe. That's crazy.

  2. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by carriecmu0503 View Post
    I still don't get why Jeremy didn't do a 3 jump combo. Was he not planning to do one?.
    He was planning to do a triple lutz+triple toe loop+ double loop followed by a triple loop and a triple salchow after the step sequence. Instead, he did a triple lutz + triple toe loop, a double loop + double toe loop and a double salchow after the salchow.

    http://www.usfigureskating.org/leade...0/results.html

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    I believe Abbott's planned jumps were not updated with the new jump layout for Nationals:

    Planned Jumps (GP season) --> Executed Jumps (Nationals)
    Triple Lutz --> Quad Toeloop (under-rotated)
    Quad Toeloop --> Triple Lutz
    Triple Flip --> Triple Axel + Double Toeloop
    Triple Axel --> Triple Axel
    Triple Axel+Double Toeloop --> Triple Flip
    Triple Lutz+Triple Toeloop+Double Loop --> Triple Lutz + Triple Toeloop
    Triple Loop --> Double Loop + Double Toeloop
    Triple Salchow --> Double Salchow

    ETA: Here are the jumps he did in his last practice run through the day before the FS:
    4T fall, 3Lz, 3A2T, stopped for a bit, 3A, 3F, 3Lz2T2T, 2Lo, 3S2T

    He mentioned the doubled Salchow in his press conference but not the doubled loop that proved costly as well.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  4. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    I never said his basics were better than Miner, Abbott, or Farris, because I agree with you that they aren't, but those guys all have very good basics skating, so just because Max isn't quite on par in that regard, doesn't make him automatically bad. He won because he landed 3 clean quads in the event and had a backloaded program, while Miner landed 1 clean and 1 under-rotated quad and popped open an intended 3a and had a pretty front loaded program, Abbott under-rotated and fell on his only quad attempt, doubled two jumps, and didn't do a 3-jump combo, and Farris fell on his one quad attempt, lost a level on a spin and step sequence, and got two edge calls on his flips. In his FS he actually edged Farris out on components anyways, but Ross and Jeremy were way ahead in PCS so even the judges don't consider Max's presentation to be on par with those two, even when he had a clean skate and they made mistakes.

    Basically, I feel like Max isn't getting the credit he deserves. No, he's not a lyrical artsy skater like Jeremy, nor does he have the "nice normal guy" charm of Ross, or the lines, looks, and endearing boyishness of Farris, but, that's okay. Yes, he used to play Hockey. Yes, he's short and compact, his legs especially. Yes, his programs are jump centric instead of pieces of art, and, yes, his looks might not appeal to everyone (I personally find him very cute though), but the technical side of figure skating is more important than ever in the men's even and Max has that in spades. Plus he's young and hardworking and driven. I think he's a great choice for Worlds and really do think he'll make the top 10 comfortably if he can skate like he usually does, just on the basis of his technical abilities. And his PCS won't be awful, they won't be as high as at Nationals but he'll get high 6s or low 7s most likely, which is what the likes of Dornbush, Farris, and Rippon usually get at international events so if you're arguing one of them should be going to Worlds instead, the PCS buffer would likely be slim to nonexistant for any of them, so it once again comes down to TES, and Max beats every guy in the US on the basis of TES so there you go.
    Well, not really. He won because his PCS relative to other competitors was not right. Whether he makes a better bet at top ten at Worlds is another question really.

  5. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgobluegirl View Post
    I honestly think that Tom Z should function solely as a jump specialist. He can clearly teach skaters to jump well and consistently, with good technique, and to give credit where credit is due, a lot of those top guys at US nationals learned their jumps from him. He just shouldn't be driving the coaching team, and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near choreography and general packaging of a skater.

    Free Max Aaron!
    Well, Flatt's flip / lutz technique absolutely hurt my soul. Aaron's and Bradley's jumps didn't have the same nice form as those of Abbott's, Mroz' and Farris'.

  6. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Are you married to Elvis Stojko by any chance?


    What makes him bad is shallow edges. The whole point of good skating skills is that you generate speed easily. One long push and away you go. Aaron has to scrape a lot of cross-overs to generate speed.

    What makes him bad is poor posture. He slouches throughout.

    What makes him bad is ignoring the music. You choose a piece of music. A piece of music has a certain rhythm. You move to that rhythm. Simple. He doesn't.

    What makes him bad is ignoring the music. You choose a piece of music. A piece of music has certain character. You move in a way which reflects the character of the music. He does that a little better now than in the past thanks to Camerlengo but is still really lacking in this area.

    Then there's also things like layout of elements on ice, transitions, etc. etc.

    If you actually considered all of the above - which judges should - when giving out PCS, there is absolutely now way he'd ever get high 6s or 8s.

    But back in the real world, PCS are tied to the jumps performed.
    I watched the skate after I knew he won and got comparable PCS to Farris. I kept looking for him to do something with his blades. There's not much blade work in the program at all except during the steps and even so, the blade work was not well done. There's little one foot skating or change in direction. He was fast but it was more like bullying across the ice instead of the way a Gordeeva or Kwan would move.

    His choreographer really needs to find ways to showcase his strength in PCS (or at least hide his weaknesses) instead of just having too many finger snapping moments.


    Under Tom Zakrajsek?

    Aaron already plans to do 5 quads next season (two in SP and three in FS) and that's the direction he will go into, resulting in multiple injuries that Zakrajsek will ignore and nobody in his team will give a rat's ass about the presentation. That's a much more likely scenario.
    Agreed.

  7. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    Another thing, while Farris' artistry is good considering his age, he's barely 18 and skates like it, there's lots of artistic potential and he is improving steadily in that area, but his international PCS are on par with the likes of Dornbush and Rippon, not even quite Miner level, so he doesn't have the Jeremy advantage in that regard yet. Plus rushing him out to senior Worlds after, from what I can tell, the USFS talked him into staying on the JGP this season, it would just be confusing and deliver mixed messages.
    Except Farris was getting those PCS in junior competitions which generally give out lower PCS. I will bet if you put him up against the other guys at the same senior international competition, his PCS will come out ahead for simiar performances.

    And your second point is exactly why I think USFS was stupid to hold him back in international juniors this season. They thought it's already too crowded on top and Farris and Brown are better served staying in juniors. However, besides Miner, none of the big boys have consistently delivered solid performances this season. Their bet on Dornbush (and Mroz a few years back) just didn't materialize like they thought it would and now it's too late to consider Farris because he didn't even do senior GPs. At least Aaron did some senior internationals.

    Still, I think Farris and Miner would serve US men's team well with keeping the 2 spots and a great developmental plan for next season and especially for post-Sochi.

  8. #628

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    I think all nations should thank those judges to have selected for the second time the worst possible winner. Or maybe it's a russian's conspiracy to ensure the win in Sochi ah ! -in case noone understood : I'm joking.

    poths Void: MarieM carries a rusty old blade in her handbag!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    What makes him bad is shallow edges. The whole point of good skating skills is that you generate speed easily. One long push and away you go. Aaron has to scrape a lot of cross-overs to generate speed.
    Fernandez too needs quite a few cross-overs to generate speed and he doesn't even generate the same amount of speed as Aaron. Does Fernandez have deep edges as opposed to Aaron's shallow edges? Is Fernandez a better skater than Aaron or just a better packaged skater?

    But I got to say Fernandez is quite a phenom in figure skating because he moved from a PC mark of 82 at the GPF up to a PC mark of 89 at Europeans in a matter of just six weeks or so while his technical score was pretty much the same at both competitions. If he keeps up the good work at this pace, I can easily see him beating the likes of Chan and Takahashi next season.

    If Max Aaron was overscored on the components at Nationals and I suppose he was, does anyone honestly believe Jeremy Abbott would score internationally as high as 88+ for his LP performance at the Omaha Championships?

    As far as Ross Miner goes:
    NHK this season - Free Skate TES - 86.74; PCS - 75.22.
    2013 Nationals - TES - 86.08; PCS - 84.22

    Assuming the US judges were consistent in inflating Miner's PC and Aaron's PC by a similar number of points, one could easily conclude international judges might well give Max a PC mark of around 71 for his free skate at Nationals and why wouldn't they so long as a slow and messy Verner who popped just about all his jumps at Europeans could score around 71 on the program components?

    Re Elvis Stojko, is he by any chance the guy who won 3 world titles and 2 Olympic silver medals back in the nineties? If it's him, what's so bad about being married to Stojko? He is a big name in figure skating.

  10. #630
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    Just rewatched Ross and Max's LPs. Notice that neither did a 3 jump combo. Would they consider doing them after the 1st 3x? 3x-2t-2t after their 1st 3x respectively. They are going to need every point available to them at Worlds.

  11. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Just rewatched Ross and Max's LPs. Notice that neither did a 3 jump combo. Would they consider doing them after the 1st 3x? 3x-2t-2t after their 1st 3x respectively. They are going to need every point available to them at Worlds.
    Max is doing a 3T/half loop/3S sequence that this year is considered as a 3 jump combo

    Comparing Max PCS to Fernandez I have to say, that while it's true that Javi needs a lot of crossovers to gain speed too, his skating is very smooth and fluid. His posture is much better than Aaron's and he's a better spinner at this point (though not being a very good one, he gets the levels and has adecuate rotation speed). And as Varbar said he's much better packaged in his programs and has an understanding of the music much greater than Aaron's at this point

  12. #632
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    For those who think Farris should go to worlds. I like Farris, but no way was Farris gonna beat Max with that skate at US nationals.

    Re skating skills. Farris has a smooth glide but his edges are not deep, now if it is Brown landing 2 3As, then yes he should beat Max and go to worlds. But all the folks who are well rounded skaters just didnt get the jumps done

  13. #633

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    I love Farris' skating, but he looked really slowwwwww in his FS at nationals.

  14. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinhood View Post
    Max is doing a 3T/half loop/3S sequence that this year is considered as a 3 jump combo

    Comparing Max PCS to Fernandez I have to say, that while it's true that Javi needs a lot of crossovers to gain speed too, his skating is very smooth and fluid. His posture is much better than Aaron's and he's a better spinner at this point (though not being a very good one, he gets the levels and has adecuate rotation speed). And as Varbar said he's much better packaged in his programs and has an understanding of the music much greater than Aaron's at this point
    Thank you! I didn't know that! So, they are indeed maximizing points.

  15. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    Assuming the US judges were consistent in inflating Miner's PC and Aaron's PC by a similar number of points, one could easily conclude international judges might well give Max a PC mark of around 71 for his free skate at Nationals and why wouldn't they so long as a slow and messy Verner who popped just about all his jumps at Europeans could score around 71 on the program components?
    Your assumption is faulty. The judges were not consistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by toddlj View Post
    Aaron's components for the short averaged 6.728 (factored comp score 33.64), while for the LP, they averaged 7.948 (factored comp score 79.48). So if he had been scored the same for the LP as he was for the SP, his score would be 12 points lower.

    However, those around him had an improvement from the SP to the LP in their PCS as well. The judges were PCS-happy that night. Miner's went up by about 6 points, Abbott by about 6, Farris by about 7. So, stripping away the across-the-board inflation, Aaron gained about 6 points. The numbers show that you are correct; he would not have won without that extra boost.
    Now, it's certainly possible that if Aaron whips out two quadruple salchows in the Free Skate, the ISU judges will turn into a bunch of fangirls and start throwing panties high PCS marks at him, but I wouldn't count on it.

  16. #636

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Now, it's certainly possible that if Aaron whips out two quadruple salchows in the Free Skate, the ISU judges will turn into a bunch of fangirls and start throwing panties high PCS marks at him, but I wouldn't count on it.
    More likely that if he skates a blinder in the SP that his PCS scores will magically jump in the LP if he does even decently in the LP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    I believe Abbott's planned jumps were not updated with the new jump layout for Nationals:

    Planned Jumps (GP season) --> Executed Jumps (Nationals)
    Triple Lutz --> Quad Toeloop (under-rotated)
    Quad Toeloop --> Triple Lutz
    Triple Flip --> Triple Axel + Double Toeloop
    Triple Axel --> Triple Axel
    Triple Axel+Double Toeloop --> Triple Flip
    Triple Lutz+Triple Toeloop+Double Loop --> Triple Lutz + Triple Toeloop
    Triple Loop --> Double Loop + Double Toeloop
    Triple Salchow --> Double Salchow

    ETA: Here are the jumps he did in his last practice run through the day before the FS:
    4T fall, 3Lz, 3A2T, stopped for a bit, 3A, 3F, 3Lz2T2T, 2Lo, 3S2T

    He mentioned the doubled Salchow in his press conference but not the doubled loop that proved costly as well.
    That jump content leaves a myriad of ways for Jeremy to have won his fourth title, or the silver medal. Landing a clean quad in the free, as he did last season, would have set the matter to rest. With the number of quads being done at Europeans, not to mention what Patrick Chan and the Japanese skaters are capable of producing, a U.S. skater is not going to be sent to worlds on the basis of skating skills and the hope that a clean quad (as well as more jump content in the second half of a FS) will appear at the final event of the season. Great as Abbott absolutely is, it's just common sense.

  18. #638
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    More likely that if he skates a blinder in the SP that his PCS scores will magically jump in the LP if he does even decently in the LP.
    Well, we're talking about two ISU competitions here, Four Continents and Worlds. He isn't going to be such an unknown quantity at Worlds as he will be at Four Continents. I think that even if he skates comparably at both events, he may be treated differently at Worlds from Four Continents.

    I will say that I don't think there's any particular reason that the judges should necessarily single him out for favoritism. Theare are other skaters who can do two or even three quadruple jumps in their Free Skate but who have much better skating skills than he does.

    And, by the way, I did enjoy his Free Skate at Nationals, even if his edging and stroking left something to be desired.

  19. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Except Farris was getting those PCS in junior competitions which generally give out lower PCS. I will bet if you put him up against the other guys at the same senior international competition, his PCS will come out ahead for simiar performances.

    And your second point is exactly why I think USFS was stupid to hold him back in international juniors this season. They thought it's already too crowded on top and Farris and Brown are better served staying in juniors. However, besides Miner, none of the big boys have consistently delivered solid performances this season. Their bet on Dornbush (and Mroz a few years back) just didn't materialize like they thought it would and now it's too late to consider Farris because he didn't even do senior GPs. At least Aaron did some senior internationals.

    Still, I think Farris and Miner would serve US men's team well with keeping the 2 spots and a great developmental plan for next season and especially for post-Sochi.
    This is true, but again, with Farris attempting only one quad between his two programs, if he wants to have a shot at beating out guys like Max, he needs to make his programs very strategic and COP savvy, and at Nationals, the FS layout wasn't that much. He has 5 jumps in the 2nd half which is good, but again, there are just little changes that I think he could handle that would boost the BV and might have made the difference in 2nd vs 4th at Nationals. For example, his layout at nationals was:

    3a-3t
    4t
    3lz-2t
    x 3a
    x 3f (e)
    x 3lo
    x 3f-2t-2lo (e)
    x 3s

    and improvement that should still be well within his capability would be

    3a-3t
    4t
    3lz
    x 3a
    x 3lz -2t
    x 3lo
    x 3f-1/2lo-3s
    x 2a

    Or something like

    3a-3t
    4t
    3lz
    x 3a
    x 3lz-1/2lo-3lo
    x 2a
    x 3f-2t-2lo
    x 3s

    His 3a is a good jump for him, but I understand why he might not want to put both of them in the 2nd half of his program, with the second layout though, he could tinker with trying both 3a in the second half if it's something he thought he could do. And I'm not that worried about Josh anyways because his quad actually does look pretty good, and I think it's just a matter of time before it becomes a consistent jump for him, he's at least getting around on the jump which is promising. But anyways, figure skating under COP is all a numbers game and skating smart. That's why Morozov's students do so well. Josh has a good shot at making the Sochi team regardless of his staying a junior this season (which I actually think helped improve his confidence and consistency so it may be a blessing honestly), but unless the 4t becomes a money jump for him and fast, he's got to be more strategic in his program choices. Losing one spin level in the FS is fine, but getting level 2 on a step sequence and putting 2 flips in a program when there's a good chance you get edge calls on them, and putting 2 combos early in the program when one of them is a 3lz-2t he can easily do late in the program is just not how you milk COP. And we all know Josh is capable of doing a nice 4t, but for ANY guy that can not rely on the quad to pad their scores, the thinking needs to be, how can I construct my program to close the gaps on guys who can and will likely land multiple quads if I end up falling on my quad? And that's where COP-saavy layouts come into play.

    Anyways, I also agree with those who say Farris' speed could be improved. With more speed, his 4t consistent, and a more strategic layout, I think he could definitely be US champion, maybe even by next season. A more well-known choreographer could also help, Josh has nice clean long lines, good flexibility, and has become pretty handsome, and I think a top choreographer could show this off more in his programs. His Rach is lovely but doesn't do much to make him stand out, which for someone as talented as him could really make a big difference in terms of being competitive in seniors. He's so young that I'm not worried at all, but all the more reason he doesn't need to be going to Worlds this season. I don't think Max will disappoint, and I'm hoping the good Nationals result will give Josh more confidence and momentum going into JW and next season which will hopefully translate to good results. He's come a long way and is an exceptionally good skater for his age, but he is only barely 18. None of the 3 guys who placed ahead of him at Nationals were not really close to as good as him when they were the same age, and I can't help but wonder if Dornbush had wound up 4th instead of 2nd at Nats in 2011, and gone to JW instead of Worlds where he wound up placing the highest of all the men which built up expectations, if he might not be a more steady competitor now...
    Last edited by pinky166; 01-31-2013 at 05:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post

    and improvement that should still be well within his capability would be

    Or something like

    3a-3t
    4t
    3lz
    x 3a
    x 3lz-1/2lo-3lo
    x 2a
    x 3f-2t-2lo
    x 3s

    ...
    Impossible.

    First, 3lz-1/2lo-3lo is physically impossible. Unless a skater can land the 1/2 lo on BO edge and rotate and jump the 3lo in the different direction and different foot. Ain't gonna happen. May be you're thinking of the plain 3z/3lo?
    Second, FP can only have one 3-jump combo. 3lz-1/2lo-3lo (even if a super human can do such freaky thing) and 3f-2t-2lo in the FP will disqualify the second 3-jump combo.

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