Page 31 of 48 FirstFirst ... 21293031323341 ... LastLast
Results 601 to 620 of 951
  1. #601
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    452
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Abbott's PCS might have been the result of a thought process along the lines of "That wasn't very convincing. We're not going to hold you up over that cleaner more exciting program with harder jumps we saw a few minutes ago." But his PCS were still about 10 points higher than Aaron's, so the judges didn't go too far out of their way to pass him over on purpose. The jump content did that.
    That might well be the case, but then the reasoning of the judges was flawed. For the most part, components shouldn't be that much influenced by the technical success in terms of jumps. Max Aaron's energy on the night could help boost his P/E, and likewise the somewhat lackluster performance by Abbot could be reflected in his P/E as well, but things like CH should not in any way beneficiate from a boost just because you landed your jumps, or even had a good night out there, because that's a totally seperate thing to judge

    But let's not compare to Abbott then, let's compare to Johnson who also had a great skate that night, although admitedly not on the same technical level. Of course, Aaron's TES should dwarf that of Johnson, which they duly do by about 15 points. But I don't see how Aaron could be marked above Johnson in any component - skating skills, transitions, P/E, Choreography and Interpretation should all be noted well below, with the component where they would be the closest being P/E, although again, Johnson beats Aaron hands down when it comes to criteria such as "emotional and intellectual involvement", "carriage", "clarity of movement", or "variety and contrast". The judges did have the good sense to award Johnson higher Transitions, but higher CH and IN to Max Aaron make no sense whatsoever. Since I would argue that Johnson's marks on the night were about right, I'd conclude that it was Aaron's which were markedly too high (likewise, they gave higher IN to Aaron compared to Rippon, who also had a great skate - again, I don't quite see how you can defend that based on the criteria that make up the "Interpretation" components)

    For the record, I do agree that Abbott didn't have a great skate that night, and his PCs were about as high as they were going to be anyway and shouldn't have gone any higher for the sake of being "held up" (likewise, I do not think that Abbott deserved the win either). The problem to me is more that Max Aaron's PCs were not just inflated (as are the marks of most skaters who have a clean skate, especially in the context of Nationals, and not just in the US) but unrealistic. You argue that Abbott's PCs "were still about 10 points higher" than Aaron's, but frankly that's not a lot: it merely means that Abbott has on average 1 point more than Aaron in every component (which is barely more than the different that there is currently between Chan/ Takahashi and Fernandez in PCs). Given what we've seen on the ice, I don't think it accurately reflects the distance in terms of components between the two
    Last edited by rayhaneh; 01-30-2013 at 09:13 PM.

  2. #602

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Age
    53
    Posts
    10,453
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    20970
    Quote Originally Posted by rayhaneh View Post
    Max Aaron's energy on the night could help boost his P/E, and likewise the somewhat lackluster performance by Abbot could be reflected in his P/E as well, but things like CH should not in any way beneficiate from a boost just because you landed your jumps, or even had a good night out there, because that's a totally seperate thing to judge
    I agree with most of your post. I just wanted to single this out because I do think that "having a good night out there" can affect the execution of the choreography in some ways that would legitimately raise the CH score. E.g., skating with speed and confidence will have a positive effect on ice coverage and on utilization of personal and public space. Being "on" in terms of timing will have a positive effect on phrasing.

    Landing the jumps alone wouldn't affect the choreography, but landing the jumps in time with the music would, and missing the landings will probably lead to getting off the music each time for a few seconds at least.

  3. #603
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    452
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I agree with most of your post. I just wanted to single this out because I do think that "having a good night out there" can affect the execution of the choreography in some ways that would legitimately raise the CH score. E.g., skating with speed and confidence will have a positive effect on ice coverage and on utilization of personal and public space. Being "on" in terms of timing will have a positive effect on phrasing.

    Landing the jumps alone wouldn't affect the choreography, but landing the jumps in time with the music would, and missing the landings will probably lead to getting off the music each time for a few seconds at least.
    I can see your point, although wouldn't falls in that case affect IN instead of CH (CH being really about the structure/ construction of the program whereas IN does include the notion of timing)? It would actually be interesting to find out if there are any guidelines as to how much possible falls on technical elements should be allowed to influence IN or other components really

    That's actually the reason why I brought up the example of Johnson (and Rippon) in this because that allowed me to bring the comparison between two athletes who did execute their program well (Johnson ended up exclusively with positive GOE on all his technical elements), the only major difference technically being the difficulty of the jumps which shouldn't really influence PCs

  4. #604
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Havering-atte-Bower
    Posts
    3,483
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by toddlj View Post
    I have to be honest that I avoid comments like "skates like a man" because it implies men are better than women... or that there is weakness or frailty in being a woman, and I know plenty of women who are tough as nails. (I hate the phrase "throws like a girl" too. Some girls could knock you to the ground with their throw.) That being said, I did love how aggressive and confident Max was, and how safe and secure his jumps were. I don't want to lump that in with "manly" behavior, though, as I always bristle at the potential homophobia or gender bias in statements like that. Just sayin.
    oo woo-oo-oo oo woo-oo-oo
    (Wop wop wop wop)
    oo woo-oo-oo oo woo-oo-oo
    Skate like a man

    Oh how you tried
    To cut me down to size
    by telling dirty lies to my friends
    But my own father
    Said butch it up, don't bother
    The world isn't coming to an end

    He said skate like a man
    Act like you’re straight
    Skate like a man my son
    No poster's worth
    Crawling on the earth
    So skate like a man my son

    oo woo-oo-oo oo woo-oo-oo
    (Wop wop wop wop)
    oo woo-oo-oo oo woo-oo-oo

    Fine eyed baby
    I don't mean maybe
    We're gonna get along somehow
    Soon you'll be sighing
    On 'count of all your prying
    Oh yeah, just look who's laughing now

    I'm gonna skate like a man
    Fast as I can
    Skate like a man for you
    I'll show the world
    Forget about it girl
    And skate like a man for you

    oo woo-oo-oo oo woo-oo-oo
    (Wop wop wop wop)
    oo woo-oo-oo oo woo-oo-oo
    (Wop wop wop wop)
    oo woo-oo-oo oo woo-oo-oo
    (Wop wop wop wop)
    oo woo-oo-oo oo woo-oo-oo


  5. #605

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    1,084
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post

    I'm gonna skate like a man
    Fast as I can
    Skate like a man for you
    I'll show the world
    Forget about it girl
    And skate like a man for you

    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Vagabond again."

  6. #606

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Age
    42
    Posts
    8,592
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    2418
    No matter who won the title, someone would have been whining. The fact is, quad jumps are now getting the value that they deserve, and Max flat out out-jumped everyone. Was he graceful? No. But he has power and can rotate the jumps. He isn't a delicate competitor by any means, so he will likely be solid in competition so long as his technique is sound. He's young, and has plenty of time to develop the other pieces. Isn't it great, though, that Team USA has two men going to the World Championships who can do quads? And looking beyond 2014, we've got Farris, Dornbush, Johnson, Chen, Zhao, and Brown? We are in very good hands with this crop. Personally, I would think that Aaron and Miner will hang around as well, so we could have eight or nine guys who could be good enough to go to the 2018 Games. Exciting stuff!
    Beefcake's fancy, saccharine, artsy, drag bingo cliche effusing, bipolar, OTT fashionista manchild

  7. #607
    Internet Beyotch
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    15,808
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    23556
    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Okay- well then that doesn't do anything to explain the difference between the two days
    You're leaving out how he skated. Skaters aren't robots that skate exactly the same from day to day. Aaron was really "on" for the LP and it was reflected in the PCS, as it should be.

    The way some of you are talking, you'd think USFS sat in a back room and decided that Max Aaron was the future of US figure skating and so inexplicably gave him the win regardless of what happened on the ice when what actually happened is that we have a bunch of guys all with different strengths who are capable of scoring in a similar range and the ones with better basics and choreography (but lesser TES) didn't skate their best while Max did. What were the judges supposed to do? Pretend he didn't outskate the others that night because they are positive some other skater is going to somehow score better at Words?

    That might work in some small country that has only 2 or 3 world class skaters and everyone knows who is usually better than whom. In that situation, it might make sense to say that one skater just had an uncharacteristic off night so you are going to send him to Worlds anyway over a skater who placed better that day. But that doesn't work in a country like the US where the field is so much deeper and it's not clear who is better than whom because it kind of depends on the night and the panel and their Fall results don't show a clear hierarchy.

    In the case of the top three finishers at US Nationals, if you look at their Fall results, you have the following:

    Aaron - two Senior Bs, scores from 143.67 -156.58
    Miner - two SGPs, scores from 144.19 - 161.96, one Senior Bs, score 144.35
    Abbott - two SGPs, scores from 133.64 - 146.45

    That doesn't say to me that the judges were insane to send Aaron and Miner over Abbott. We also have Dornbush, Messing, Carriere, Rippon and Mahbanoozadeh scoring in that range during the Fall. So that's EIGHT skaters who could all be considered. Given that, USFS judges would have to be psychics to know who is going to outscore whom on any particular night. Since they aren't psychic, they might as well go by results at Nationals. It's the fairest to the athletes IMO.

    As for Max, his program is designed to maximize the points and he delivers it with panache and he came through at Nationals, which is when it counts. That works for me. I'm glad he's going to Worlds.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  8. #608

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Age
    53
    Posts
    10,453
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    20970
    Quote Originally Posted by rayhaneh View Post
    I can see your point, although wouldn't falls in that case affect IN instead of CH (CH being really about the structure/ construction of the program whereas IN does include the notion of timing)?
    I'd think it would have more of an effect on IN, but could have some effect on CH (i.e., not necessarily none).

    It would actually be interesting to find out if there are any guidelines as to how much possible falls on technical elements should be allowed to influence IN or other components really
    I'm not aware of any official guidelines to that effect.

    We had mandatory fall deductions in ice dance since 1998 Worlds (increasing based on the amount of time it took the couple to resume the dance together), and in all disciplines since ~2005, although they're not huge in magnitude at the senior level.

    There's no distinction there between falls on elements and falls between elements -- for PCS purposes I don't see any reason why there should be.

    What kind of guidelines would be appropriate? Not all falls are equal in their disruptiveness, so it would probably be more fair to leave the effect on the scoring up to each judge's discretion rather than legislating penalties in advance. Something like a written encouragement to reward clean programs and to penalize falls or other disruptive errors, without dictating by how much, might make sense.

  9. #609

    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    2,493
    vCash
    400
    Rep Power
    2110
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayar View Post
    He's [Max's] young, and has plenty of time to develop the other pieces.
    With the same coaching team? I shall bite my tongue.

  10. #610
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    452
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I'd think it would have more of an effect on IN, but could have some effect on CH (i.e., not necessarily none).
    I don't think it should have any influence at all on CH, but I'm not an ISU judge either

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    What kind of guidelines would be appropriate? Not all falls are equal in their disruptiveness, so it would probably be more fair to leave the effect on the scoring up to each judge's discretion rather than legislating penalties in advance. Something like a written encouragement to reward clean programs and to penalize falls or other disruptive errors, without dictating by how much, might make sense.
    I wasn't thinking of having a strict penalty code, but rather larger guidelines about how much falls or mistakes (stepouts, turnouts, etc) should be allowed to influence scoring in PCs in proportion with other criteria. You're already penalizing the TES, plus the extra penalty for the fall, so I don't think it should be allowed to have much of an influence on CH and Skating Skills, and only some degree of influence in P/E and IN (in case the fall(s) is (are) disruptive enough). There could be a case made for influence on transitions since some could be omitted as a result of the fall as well, although again, I think falls are already penalized enough under the CoP

  11. #611

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Age
    53
    Posts
    10,453
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    20970
    Quote Originally Posted by rayhaneh View Post
    I think falls are already penalized enough under the CoP
    So then you'd like to see guidelines advising judges not to let it affect the PCS, at least not the CH score.

    And other fans have complained that all falls are disruptive by definition and multiple falls increasingly disruptive so there should be increasing penalties to make it less and less likely that even a superior skater could win the more times they fall.

    So no rules will make everyone happy. Might as well just let the judges use their judgment.


    BTW, back at the beginning of IJS ca. 2003-4, there was a guideline to reflect falls in the P/E score, I think specifically 1.0 per fall, but judges clearly weren't doing that consistently, so the ISU instituted the fall deduction instead.

  12. #612
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    452
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    So then you'd like to see guidelines advising judges not to let it affect the PCS, at least not the CH score.

    And other fans have complained that all falls are disruptive by definition and multiple falls increasingly disruptive so there should be increasing penalties to make it less and less likely that even a superior skater could win the more times they fall.
    Actually I thought I had deleted that last sentence, sorry about that (I will leavet it now or your post would make no sense otherwise )

    I mentionned three out of 5 components which I thought could be impacted to some extent, so that's not exactly as if I was dismissing any impact on PCs altogether Just that falls never are relevant towards all the criteria of any component, so it can't have a major impact on any component

    Anyhoo, in order not to perpetuate that discussion on this thread which is probably not very appropriate I'll just add this: I find the way PCs are attributed in general very frustrating because I think they are often subject to very lazy judging, with not enough effort to distinguish between the various components (you can have a great choreography but average skating skills, for instance, but marks rarely reflect such variations of one skater's skills and rather tend to be fairly close to the median) and of course strange marking altogether. Max Aaron's PCs are one recent obvious example, but that's certainly not the only one, nor is it only a problem at US Nats. Which is why it seems to me that "letting the judges use their judgment" is not currently working. Does that mean more specific guidelines? Or just better education of judges? or less politics? Those are all open questions

  13. #613
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,465
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by LilJen View Post
    Jeremy Abbott has broken his back, too. Ain't no excuse to slouch.
    He has a compressed disk. I have never heard he had a broken back and I went back and read his bio and only the compressed disk was mentioned.

  14. #614

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Age
    26
    Posts
    2,025
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by luenatic View Post
    With the same coaching team? I shall bite my tongue.
    I honestly think that Tom Z should function solely as a jump specialist. He can clearly teach skaters to jump well and consistently, with good technique, and to give credit where credit is due, a lot of those top guys at US nationals learned their jumps from him. He just shouldn't be driving the coaching team, and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near choreography and general packaging of a skater.

    Free Max Aaron!

  15. #615
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,465
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by LilJen View Post
    Jeremy Abbott has broken his back, too. Ain't no excuse to slouch.
    He has a compressed disk. I have never heard he had a broken back and I went back and read his bio and only the compressed disk was mentioned.

  16. #616

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    29,567
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    42553
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    He has a compressed disk. I have never heard he had a broken back and I went back and read his bio and only the compressed disk was mentioned.
    Abbott's Team USA bio on IN mentions that he "Overcame a stress fracture in his lower back during the summer of 2003."

    In Abbott's own words from a Jan. 2004 pre-Nationals interview (he placed 7th in Junior at 2004 Nationals):
    "I had a pars fracture in my L5 vertebra. On your back bones there are two little "wings" that stick out on either side of the bone and basically I cracked both of them. One of them cracked all the way through and the other one was just partially cracked.

    I was off the ice for about 15 weeks. I did a lot of off-ice conditioning. Fortunately I was able to stay on the ice -- I was just not allowed to jump or spin"
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  17. #617
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    11,012
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    You're leaving out how he skated. Skaters aren't robots that skate exactly the same from day to day. Aaron was really "on" for the LP and it was reflected in the PCS, as it should be.
    If you read my posts you'll see that I absolutely agree he deserved the PCS, and think a conspiracy to have him win is just absurd. I was just wondering if the huge jump in PCS from short to long could be explained by different judges judge differently, since many others don't think it was deserved- clearly, my theory there doesn't work. But I still think he deserved the score. I wasn't there, but watching on TV I thought he had fabulous style. He wasn't a jump robot. Possibly if he was more well known, he would have been scored even better in the short, maybe the actual explanation in the jump is he was held down the previous day...

  18. #618
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Two-foot skating = BAD
    Posts
    20,463
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Awesome View Post
    My husband , who knows very little about figure skating, watched the men's long with me. He loved Max!! He said that it was about time that we have a men's champion who actually skates like a man. My 27 yr. old son agrees!
    Are you married to Elvis Stojko by any chance?

    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    just because Max isn't quite on par in that regard, doesn't make him automatically bad
    What makes him bad is shallow edges. The whole point of good skating skills is that you generate speed easily. One long push and away you go. Aaron has to scrape a lot of cross-overs to generate speed.

    What makes him bad is poor posture. He slouches throughout.

    What makes him bad is ignoring the music. You choose a piece of music. A piece of music has a certain rhythm. You move to that rhythm. Simple. He doesn't.

    What makes him bad is ignoring the music. You choose a piece of music. A piece of music has certain character. You move in a way which reflects the character of the music. He does that a little better now than in the past thanks to Camerlengo but is still really lacking in this area.

    Then there's also things like layout of elements on ice, transitions, etc. etc.

    If you actually considered all of the above - which judges should - when giving out PCS, there is absolutely now way he'd ever get high 6s or 8s.

    But back in the real world, PCS are tied to the jumps performed.

    He is a great jumper, that is something nobody can deny. And yes if he skates well, he can place much better than Abbott or Rippon could (I would send Miner and Farris to Worlds though as Marco said).

    But his PCS abilities are not good by any stretch of the imagination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayar View Post
    He's young, and has plenty of time to develop the other pieces.
    Under Tom Zakrajsek?

    Aaron already plans to do 5 quads next season (two in SP and three in FS) and that's the direction he will go into, resulting in multiple injuries that Zakrajsek will ignore and nobody in his team will give a rat's ass about the presentation. That's a much more likely scenario.

  19. #619
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    155
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Based on the circumstances, Aaron absolutely deserved to win Nationals. Realistically, I don't think he will get anywhere near 79 in PCS at Worlds like he did at Nationals. The jumping and speed was phenomenal, but if you take out all the jumps and spins all there is left are sequences of him snapping his fingers

    His presentation abilities will develop with time. He already creates excitement and power with his skating, now all he needs to do is add some choreographic content and get some decent costumes (black spandex body suit for the SP? Blasphemous. Same to the fingerless gloves for the FP)

    His best shot at making a strong impression at Worlds is skating two clean programs, landing all the quads. Good luck to him. Making Top 10 is possible, but I think Top 12 is more likely.

  20. #620
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    10,234
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Farris may have been given more generous PCS and the edge calls overlooked, doing enough to maybe put him in 2nd, if he had won the JGPF in December and come in with that momentum. I know he had an allergic reaction and was doped on Benadryl during his FS, and even so he didn't have a meltdown, but it's more that, Farris' last performance coming into Nationals was the JGPF where he had just an okay FS and was beaten by Kovtun by 11 points. He was sort of the pleasant surprise to the competition and really stepped it up at Nationals. He had a good fall season, but competing on the JGP, I tend to think it's easy to go unnoticed unless you are stellar. When he had the great FS in Lake Placid and landed the nice quad, there was some buzz, but then while he was good at his second JGP and the JGPF, he was scoring comparably to the other guys in that fairly large list and he wasn't his best at those events, so he got tossed into a a potential guy to add to the mix, but wasn't really drawing much attention like Ross had after winning bronze and beating Fernandez at NHK and even Max who had skated very strong technical programs at sectionals and his senior Bs.

    While I agree Josh is superior to max in most every area despite being three years younger, the reality is his quad is just not that consistent yet, and Max's is, so it makes sense that Max should go to Worlds. Yes, it's true Josh could build up points on spins and maybe get slightly better PCS, but in the end, Max's technical content will more than make up for that if he delivers his programs as planned. Josh could also tweak his FS layout to milk more points out of it if he's really gunning for a Sochi spot now, like by putting 2 combos in the 2nd half of his skate, replace the second 3f with a 3lz to avoid losing points on a potential edge call, and switch the 3f-2t-2lo to 3f-1/2lo-3s and then do a 2a at the end in the place where the 3s is currently. Unless next season he plans to do two quads in his FS in which case the current layout would be fine. He's a great talent with a bright future, but I do understand why he wound up 4th even after such a great FS - if the quad isn't a sure thing, most guys try to compensate by backloading their combos and doing 3-1/2 lo-3 combos as the 3 jump combinations which opens up jumping passes to do a 2a or two.

    Another thing, while Farris' artistry is good considering his age, he's barely 18 and skates like it, there's lots of artistic potential and he is improving steadily in that area, but his international PCS are on par with the likes of Dornbush and Rippon, not even quite Miner level, so he doesn't have the Jeremy advantage in that regard yet. Plus rushing him out to senior Worlds after, from what I can tell, the USFS talked him into staying on the JGP this season, it would just be confusing and deliver mixed messages. Plus I also wonder if there's maybe some fear that if Farris were to go to Worlds and wind up beating Miner there, if that could hurt Miner's reputation in a way, just where Ross and Joshua are kind of similar skaters in that they are similar in their classical style, build, workhorse mentality, well-rounded skating, as well as being a bit white bread for now. Ross is the go-to guy and you don't want some 18 year old hurting that reputation of his, with Jeremy, Ross and Jeremy are such different types of skaters, and the same goes for Max and Ross, so I wouldn't imagine the same kind of fears would exist. So Max really is the best choice for Worlds given how Jeremy skated.

Page 31 of 48 FirstFirst ... 21293031323341 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •