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  1. #1

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    U.S. Men 2012-13 news, updates & general discussion

    Now that the first Senior B international is in the books, it's time for a new season news and general discussion thread for the U.S. Men.

    International Scores to date:
    231.27 Max Aaron, Salt Lake Sr B 1st
    222.00 Nathan Chen, JGP Austria 1st (JR in U.S.)
    218.69 Joshua Farris, JGP Lake Placid 1st
    218.06 Armin Mahbanoozadeh, Salt Lake Sr B 2nd
    213.44 Ross Miner, Salt Lake Sr B 3rd
    203.59 Timothy Dolensky, Salt Lake Sr B 4th
    185.81 Jason Brown, JGP France 2nd
    169.70 Harrison Choate, JGP France 4th
    165.74 Jay Yostanto, JGP Austria 6th (JR in U.S.)
    124.22 James Schetelich, JGP Lake Placid 12th (JR in U.S.)

    Coming up:
    JGP Turkey: Brown, Shotaro Omori (JR)
    JGP Slovenia: Farris, Lukas Kaugars (JR)
    Nebelhorn Trophy: Stephen Carriere, Keegan Messing
    Finlandia Trophy: Richard Dornbush, Johnny Weir

    ETA Top summer competition scores (170 or higher total):
    233.08 Richard Dornbush, Glacier Falls Summer Classic
    209.68 Grant Hochstein, Middle Atlantics (exh.)
    208.76 Jason Brown, Southport Summer Classic (exh.)
    204.99 Armin Mahbanoozadeh, Vail Invitational
    195.04 Keegan Messing, Liberty
    192.41 Max Aaron, Liberty
    192.33 Sean Rabbitt, LA Open
    191.56 Andrew Gonzales, Skate Detroit
    190.59 Brandon Mroz, Liberty
    190.06 Alexander Johnson, Skate Detroit
    188.87 Harrison Choate, Liberty
    188.68 Ross Miner, Liberty
    187.89 Vincent Zhou, LA Open (JR in U.S.)
    187.34 Philip Warren, Glacier Falls
    185.33 Nathan Chen, LA Open (JR in U.S.)
    184.31 Stephen Carriere, Glacier Falls
    181.03 Shotaro Omori, Golden West (JR in U.S.)
    178.90 Joshua Farris, Vail Invitational
    177.28 Wesley Campbell, Liberty
    175.63 Jonathan Cassar , Golden West
    173.23 Douglas Razzano, Golden West
    Last edited by Sylvia; 09-16-2012 at 02:01 AM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

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    Wow.. I am sooo impressed with Nathen Chen. And he is only 13? This prodigious kid will mow over all the seniors in when he enters the rank. When is he able to join the Seniors? He certainly has the skills to play with the big boys.

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    I'm really excited for Ricky and Johnny's upcoming Senior B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    Wow.. I am sooo impressed with Nathen Chen. And he is only 13? This prodigious kid will mow over all the seniors in when he enters the rank. When is he able to join the Seniors? He certainly has the skills to play with the big boys.
    I think it's way too early to say that. He still has to get through te puberty monster. Plus, seniors is a whole other ball game.

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    What exactly is the completed / rotated Quad scorecard for American Men? I count -

    Armin - x2 Quad Toe (Vail LP; Salt Lake Sr. SP)
    Max - x2 Quad Sal (Salt Lake Sr. SP + LP)
    Richard - x1 Quad Toe (Glacier Falls LP)
    Joshua - x1 Quad Toe (JGP Lake Placid LP)

    I think the US men are at this point in better shape than last year ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    Wow.. I am sooo impressed with Nathen Chen. And he is only 13? This prodigious kid will mow over all the seniors in when he enters the rank. When is he able to join the Seniors? He certainly has the skills to play with the big boys.
    2014/2015

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    What exactly is the completed / rotated Quad scorecard for American Men? I count -

    Armin - x2 Quad Toe (Vail LP; Salt Lake Sr. SP)
    Max - x2 Quad Sal (Salt Lake Sr. SP + LP)
    Richard - x1 Quad Toe (Glacier Falls LP)
    Joshua - x1 Quad Toe (JGP Lake Placid LP)

    I think the US men are at this point in better shape than last year ...
    I think that Max will have a toe in his program by the end of the year too. Perhaps two sals and a toe in :O ... Imagine his program as 4Sal, 4Sal 2toe, 4toe, 3A, 3A 3T, 3Lz, 3Lz half loop 3s, and 3F. Sounds awesome.

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    I'm very impressed with Max & think that he & Ricky Dornbush may be leading the way in the future for raising the bar on quads in the USA. American men have a lot of catching up to do internationally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    What exactly is the completed / rotated Quad scorecard for American Men? I count -

    Armin - x2 Quad Toe (Vail LP; Salt Lake Sr. SP)
    Max - x2 Quad Sal (Salt Lake Sr. SP + LP)
    Richard - x1 Quad Toe (Glacier Falls LP)
    Joshua - x1 Quad Toe (JGP Lake Placid LP)
    Mahbanoozadeh was quoted in the pre-SLC article on IN that he landed 4T in both his SP and FS with "+1 GOEs across the [judging] panel, so I was really happy."

    Dornbush landed 4T with +1.50 GOE in his SP at Glacier Falls Summer Classic; he got credit for landing 4T with -1.25 GOE and fell on his 2nd 4T attempt in the FS. He fell on the 3 4T he attempted at Golden West.

    Keegan Messing attempted 4T in both SP and FS at Glacier Falls - they were called 4T<<+2T in SP and 4T< fall in FS.

    At Liberty, credited quad attempts in the FS were by Max Aaron 4S with -1 GOE (he fell on 4S in SP), Brandon Mroz 4Lo with -2 GOE (4Lo< fall in SP), Ross Miner 4S fall (4T< fall in SP).
    Last edited by Sylvia; 09-16-2012 at 05:14 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

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    Copying over some of the Nathan Chen-related posts from the U.S. Men pre-season thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Is Nathan Chen skating Seniors domestically this season?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    No, he is remaining Junior in the U.S. this season. I'm glad he is, too. As AMAZING as he is at 13, I assume his growth plates have not yet closed and landing/training all the triples through Axel is tough on a young body.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lanna View Post
    Me, too. I think his staying back in novice another year was a good idea, and staying back in junior is, too. And what if he did make the podium in seniors (which I think he could)? It's not like he can go to Worlds. He won't be age-eligible for Worlds until the post-Olympic year, so there's no need to rush him through.
    Re-posting what I wrote in the JGP Austria thread in Kiss and Cry:
    2012 U.S. Novice Men's champ Vincent Zhou, who turns 12 in October, defeated Nathan Chen at the Golden West club competition last month (and overall at L.A. Open in July) -- he will contend for the 2013 U.S. Junior Men's title as well as Shotaro Omori (he's scheduled to compete at the JGP in Turkey next week) who also finished ahead of Chen at Golden West. Omori has acquired a 3A in the off season and is coached by Tammy Gambill, as is Zhou.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesla View Post
    I think it's way too early to say that. He still has to get through te puberty monster. Plus, seniors is a whole other ball game.
    It is way too early. I'm really enjoying watching Nathan now. I'm trying not to project too far into the future (although I find myself getting caught up in the "what ifs" too, occasionally) So far I feel great admiration for the balance he, his coaches and his family have been able to achieve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johndockley92 View Post
    I think that Max will have a toe in his program by the end of the year too. Perhaps two sals and a toe in :O ... Imagine his program as 4Sal, 4Sal 2toe, 4toe, 3A, 3A 3T, 3Lz, 3Lz half loop 3s, and 3F. Sounds awesome.
    You have him repeatng the 4Sal, 3A and 3lz. Replace the solo lutz with the loop, I expect.

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    Has anyone heard anything re: Kevin Shum? And have Tomasello and Spencer Howe recovered from injuries?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    You have him repeatng the 4Sal, 3A and 3lz. Replace the solo lutz with the loop, I expect.
    The Zayak Rule treats quadruple jumps separately from triples. The layout johndockley92 mentioned complies with the Rule.

    On the other hand, it would be nice to see Aaron do something to boost his PCS.
    Last edited by Vagabond; 09-16-2012 at 08:41 PM. Reason: Edited for reasons explained in Post #16 below.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    The Zayak Rule treats quadruple jumps separately from triples. The layout johndockley92 mentioned complies with the Rule.
    No, I don't think it does. The Singles Freeskating Requirements sheet posted on USFS (which I would assume complies with ISU rules) states that "2 triples or quads may be repeated, but must be in combo or sequence."

    ETA: Maybe you were thinking of the rule that allows skaters not to get "Zayaked" for attempting a quadruple jump that ends up being downgraded. Early on in IJS, if a skater attempted a 4T but it was downgraded, the element would be entered into the protocol as "3T", and then if a skater subsequently performed two triple toes, the last one wouldn't count, since the computer counted that as three triple toes in the same program.

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    It appears that either I misunderstood the Rule or it has been changed.

    Rule 512

    Of all the triple and quadruple jumps only two (2) can be repeated and these repetitions must be in either a jump-combination or in a jump sequence. Triple and quadruple jumps with the same name will be considered as two different jumps.
    So Aaron has to choose which two (at most) of the 4S, 3A, and 3Z he wants to try repeating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesla View Post
    I think it's way too early to say that. He still has to get through te puberty monster. Plus, seniors is a whole other ball game.
    As impressed as I am with Nathan, ITA!

    Fingers-crossed that Nathan weathers these upcoming transitions smoothly.

    Also, ITA with A.H. Black that I'm enjoying watching Nathan now and hoping his team continues to be successful in keeping him balanced and on track. It is a huge asset that Nathan seems to be highly motivated and mentally focused.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 09-16-2012 at 08:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    It appears that either I misunderstood the Rule or it has been changed.
    It was changed to include quad jumps, but I think the change was at least 10 years ago -- maybe around 1998/99? Before IJS, anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    It appears that either I misunderstood the Rule or it has been changed.




    So Aaron has to choose which two (at most) of the 4S, 3A, and 3Z he wants to try repeating.
    Weird, I didn't know about that! Either way, a program with 2 quad sals, a quad toe, two axels, a lutz, flip, loop, & Sal and toe (in combination) will give him a sure chance at a medal even with his components.


    As for the Juniors, I'd say that Nathan, Shotaro, Lukas, Vincent, Jay, Kevin Shum, Troy, and perhaps even Emmanuel have a shot at the podium.

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    Emmanuel is skating senior this season IIRC, though I believe he's battling some kind of injury as he pulled out of most or maybe even all the summer competitions he was entered in.

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