Sets in the City - Tennis 2012 III

[liv]

Serena is what I'd call a brick house, you know, like the song Kurt Browning skated to. Stacked.

Anyway, I can understand that people might wonder about Serena because of her shoulders/arms. Her biceps and deltoids are huge, bigger than what many men have. I think she's far more muscular than Roger Federer, lol, but he's never been muscular like other guys. But, she's always been big like that. With Stosur, though, I really wonder about PEDs. She is so big right now and it overwhelms the rest of her so much that every time I see her, I wonder about drugs. It's just so different than everyone else.

I don't think it's actual stupidity that makes people bring the issue of drugs up every time they see a female athlete (or male) with huge muscles and big success. I think many of us have become pretty cynical about successful athletes after so many have eventually been caught cheating in some way. You really don't know who is clean and who isn't, especially after many of those cheaters tested clean for many years.

[judgejudy27]

People dont wonder about Stosur as much as Serena since she doesnt overwhelm the other girls with extreme physicality in her actual tennis play, she doesnt hit the ball so much harder and seem that much more athletic than everyone else the way Serena does. However that is because her technique is not that great (relative to other top players) and she isnt as naturally athletic either. However her play which is in no way physically overwhelming or overpowrering to the other girls the way Serena in makes you forget how big and muscular she is. Serena really reminds you of how how big and muscular she is with her play which seems physically overwhelming.

[aftershocks]

Yadda, yadda, yadda!!!

15 Grand Slam singles titles (a total of 30 Grand Slam titles combined) ... count 'em! Indeed, you are majestic, Serena -- and ain't it about d**n time that fact is simply accepted and celebrated?! Swallow hard and speculate as you may people, and google and goggle at her kickin' body, powerful in-your-face play, and range of emotions. Quite simply, Serena has grown up in the fishbowl of fame and yet is still grounded ... even as she has reached ever new heights of greatness. If you can't admire her stone cold fierceness on court or the warmth of her smile in victory, then just continue harrumphing and haranguing, speculating and dissembling and claiming how much you really like her, butt ... #%&$$$!

Serena has survived the death of a sister, the illness of another sister and near death herself, a stunning defeat at the French Open this year, cat calls and derision from fans, officials and commentators alike. She has not only survived all that and more, she has thrived in the elite, country club, traditionally lily white "we're better than you" atmosphere of tennis. In the process, Serena, along with her big sis and best friend, cool queenly Venus, changed the game of tennis ... Oh yeah, swallow hard if you must, they changed the game with their power, glamour, belief in themselves, with their excellence and with their majesty.

Anyone can say whatever they so please. Truth of the matter is: Serena and Venus won their titles with their god-given gifts and warrior mentalities. Disparage them if you wish to your heart's content ... no one can take their titles away. Unlike in figure skating, there is no subjectivity in tennis ... when you win, you WIN.

Smack on THIS! from Zech of Lawrence, Kan, posted w/ thoughtful response by Jon Wertheim:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ten...liams-mailbag/

Read THIS! from Frank Deford: (listening is even better)

http://www.npr.org/2012/08/22/159506...nis-for-a-ride

[Coco]

word to your mother!

[Loves_Shizuka]

oh aftershocks, YES!!

[Rottie]

Jon Wertheim alludes to Chris Evert's well-known history with the Williams family. What is it?

[kylet3]

Did anyone in Canada see Filip Peliwo's dance after Milos won his reverse singles at Davis Cup today?

[Alixana]

Did anyone in Canada see Filip Peliwo's dance after Milos won his reverse singles at Davis Cup today?

Gangnam Canadian style! Poor kid .. he was a good sport to do that on live TV.

[Alex Forrest]

Jon Wertheim alludes to Chris Evert's well-known history with the Williams family. What is it?

Well, the Willaimses did not set up with Everts down in Florida. This probably is the one time Christine should have recused herself from commentating. Instead America's Sweetheart trashed the Williamses even though there was family financial squabble.

Chris Evert is the biggest phony in women's tennis history. She is a joke among journalists. She's broken up several marriages, married a couple of guys who divorced their wives just to have her for a couple of years. She is a joke. And the more face lifts she gets will never help her severely sun damaged skin. She is a wreck.

[Megi]

So glad Canada is staying in the DC World Group.

Now, bring on the draw. This Wednesday, 6 am Eastern.

[topaz]

Well, the Willaimses did not set up with Everts down in Florida. This probably is the one time Christine should have recused herself from commentating. Instead America's Sweetheart trashed the Williamses even though there was family financial squabble.

Chris Evert is the biggest phony in women's tennis history. She is a joke among journalists. She's broken up several marriages, married a couple of guys who divorced their wives just to have her for a couple of years. She is a joke. And the more face lifts she gets will never help her severely sun damaged skin. She is a wreck.

WTH does Evert's life have to do with her being phony? Evert has only been married three times. lol

I think Chris was a fantastic champion, one of the most mentally strong women's players ever(I think Serena, Steffi and Monica were better). I think Chris has love/hate relationship with the Williams sisters. We know the story of Venus and Serena meeting Chris as children and admiring her trophies.

Chris' letter in Tennis Magazine was a "harsh" letter asking Serena to "stand up" and be the tennis player she was born to be. The Williams took it negatively I think and Serena basically said she's a different kind of player than Chris and Chris shouldn't speak to things she does not know about.

I like Serena alot but for a few years she was acting like she was out of her freaking mind with her actions.

I've read and heard about lots of stupid and nasty things said to Serena and Venus; they have been at the brunt of several nasty practical jokes, ie. Capriatii and Hingis putting used tampons in Venus' locker.

*Hingis and Henin have to be two of the most disliked tennis players in the locker room and by other players within the last 15 years. Maria S isn't liked by many either, not for "sportsmanship"(like Hingis and Henin) issues but because Maria is very aloof and kind of cold in the locker room.

Serena has been more "open" and "friendly" in the locker room over the years compared to Venus who took alot of shit and stood up for Serena early on. Venus is more jaded than Serena.

IMHO, Serena is the greatest women's tennis player of all time. Serena has conquerered and beaten all of her rivals.

Serena vs Hingis - 7 to 6

Serena vs Capriati - 10 to 7

Serena vs Henin - 8 to 6

Serena vs Maria S - 9 to 2

Steffi was a great champ but I will always say that she benefited from Monica's stabbing. I believe that Steffi would have finished with possibly 18 or 19. Graf won 6 GS titles during the 2 1/2 years Monica was out of the game.

[Coco]

Chris' letter in Tennis Magazine was a "harsh" letter asking Serena to "stand up" and be the tennis player she was born to be. The Williams took it negatively I think and Serena basically said she's a different kind of player than Chris and Chris shouldn't speak to things she does know about.

Here is an excerpt from the letter:

Just a couple of years ago, when you were fully committed to the game, you showed the athleticism, shot-making, and competitive desire to become the greatest player ever. Many besides myself shared the same sentiment. You won five of the six Grand Slams you entered over the 2002 and 2003 seasons and looked utterly dominant in the process. Then you got sidetracked with injuries, pet projects, and indifference and have won only one major in the last seven you’ve played. I find those results hard to fathom. You’re simply too good not to be winning two Grand Slam titles a year. You’re still only 24, well within your prime. These are crucial years that you’ll never get back. Why not dedicate yourself entirely for the next five years and see what you can achieve?

In her recounting of the various events that sidetracked the champion, Evert left out the most significant event - the murder of Serena's oldest sister a week or two after the 2003 U.S. Open.

It was APPALLING, horribly insensitive and just bad analysis from a supposedly astute commentator.

[hydro]

In her recounting of the various events that sidetracked the champion, Evert left out the most significant event - the murder of Serena's oldest sister a week or two after the 2003 U.S. Open.

It was APPALLING, horribly insensitive and just bad analysis from a supposedly astute commentator.

Agreed. Evert's letter was so miscalculated and ugly. It never got to the heart of Serena's absence after 2003, which Serena herself has admitted was a large part of her taking time away.

And I just have to say, now that it's 2012, Serena has proven Evert wrong.

[judgejudy27]

WTH does Evert's life have to do with her being phony? Evert has only been married three times. lol

I think Chris was a fantastic champion, one of the most mentally strong women's players ever(I think Serena, Steffi and Monica were better). I think Chris has love/hate relationship with the Williams sisters. We know the story of Venus and Serena meeting Chris as children and admiring her trophies.

Chris' letter in Tennis Magazine was a "harsh" letter asking Serena to "stand up" and be the tennis player she was born to be. The Williams took it negatively I think and Serena basically said she's a different kind of player than Chris and Chris shouldn't speak to things she does not know about.

I like Serena alot but for a few years she was acting like she was out of her freaking mind with her actions.

I've read and heard about lots of stupid and nasty things said to Serena and Venus; they have been at the brunt of several nasty practical jokes, ie. Capriatii and Hingis putting used tampons in Venus' locker.

*Hingis and Henin have to be two of the most disliked tennis players in the locker room and by other players within the last 15 years. Maria S isn't liked by many either, not for "sportsmanship"(like Hingis and Henin) issues but because Maria is very aloof and kind of cold in the locker room.

Serena has been more "open" and "friendly" in the locker room over the years compared to Venus who took alot of shit and stood up for Serena early on. Venus is more jaded than Serena.

IMHO, Serena is the greatest women's tennis player of all time. Serena has conquerered and beaten all of her rivals.

Serena vs Hingis - 7 to 6

Serena vs Capriati - 10 to 7

Serena vs Henin - 8 to 6

Serena vs Maria S - 9 to 2

Steffi was a great champ but I will always say that she benefited from Monica's stabbing. I believe that Steffi would have finished with possibly 18 or 19. Graf won 6 GS titles during the 2 1/2 years Monica was out of the game.

18 or 19 slams would still much more than Serena at this point, and Steffi's 100 plus tournament wins are light years more than Serena. I actually like Serena and I dont even care whether or not she is a steroid user since I think most professional athletes in most sports (all in some sports, eg cycling and weightlifting) dope anyway. Amongst tennis players Nadal, Djokovic, Stosur, Henin, are some others I am virtually certain were at some point, along with many others. However her stats arent GOAT worthy at this point. For me Steffi isnt the GOAT either, she is 2nd or 3rd. The true GOAT is Margaret Court who owns virtually every existing record, singles or doubles. Most shun Court and pick Steffi or Martina, but really based on numbers Court is the clear winner.

There is nothing about Serena's career that is the GOAT at this point. Not dominance (even her 2002-2003 peak years were inferior to even say Seles's 91-92, and Seles's 91-92 was in turn far inferior to atleast 4 or 5 women have managed), not achievements, not slams, not overall tournament record, certainly not consistency, definitely not quality of competition . Maybe longevity at this point. Other than that only subjective arguments such as peak level play.

[topaz]

@JudgeJudy27, Serena definitely has "skills" that elevate her into the greatest of all time, ie. serve, power and speed.

The quality of players in my opinion is at it's best ever in the women's game. Fitness, ball striking ability, serve and movement all at it's peak right now. It's the reason why you will not see another teenager around the age of 13, 14, 15 or 16 win a grand slam ever again. The game has matured so much. Equipment is part of the puzzle but mentally, emotionally and variety of game is the main reason while teenagers won't win again.

I think the game is more taxing physically, mentally and emotionally now than it was 40 years ago. The tennis season is longer and they're are more commitments on and off the court.

[judgejudy27]

@JudgeJudy27, Serena definitely has "skills" that elevate her into the greatest of all time, ie. serve, power and speed.

Those things are supposed to improve with time. In 20 years or even much less there will probably be a swimmer who can swim faster PBs than Michael Phelps in all 5 of his Olympic Gold individual events ever did, and who can only muster a bronze or two out of all those events combined (in some of them probably not even trying for the team, especialy if from a strong country). It wouldnt mean that person is greater though. I definitely dont agree on the speed aspect anyway. Even in her own era Venus, Henin and Clijsters at their best were as good or better movers, especialy outside of the 18 month window of Serena's career which was the only time she was ever fully fit. She had great speed, especialy when not in terrible physical shape, but she didnt dominate with speed like she did with serve and power and all around game.

OK I could see the point about the serve as all aspects of Serena's serve is the best in history IMO, but power and speed the evolution is natural. An athlete should be judged by how they fared in their own time. Someone like Kvitova can hit the ball harder than Graf and Seles did too, I dont think she deserves to be rated as better than them, just as I dont think Serena's career warrants GOAT yet.

As for the womens game being the best ever you have got to be kidding me. Experts, including numerous past champions who now commentate or write for highly publicized magazines have dissed the quality of the womens game the last few years and called it the worst ever. 2012 was much better though, but 2009-2011 were probably the worst ever years for womens tennis ever. In case you need reminder though Caroline Wozniacki ended two straight years as year end World #1. Need I say more.

[topaz]

OK I could see the point about the serve as all aspects of Serena's serve is the best in history IMO, but power and speed the evolution is natural. An athlete should be judged by how they fared in their own time. Someone like Kvitova can hit the ball harder than Graf and Seles did too, I dont think she deserves to be rated as better than them, just as I dont think Serena's career warrants GOAT yet.

As for the womens game being the best ever you have got to be kidding me. Experts, including numerous past champions who now commentate or write for highly publicized magazines have dissed the quality of the womens game the last few years and called it the worst ever. 2012 was much better though, but 2009-2011 were probably the worst ever years for womens tennis ever. In case you need reminder though Caroline Wozniacki ended two straight years as year end World #1. Need I say more.

Caroline Wozniacki ending the year at #1 for 2 years is a reflection of her consistency as a player for 2 years and the amount of tennis she played. Caroline W's skills have not progressed during the last 4 years; she has not improved her game nor her skills and the rest of the players are now attacking her weaknesses. Caroline W plays "old school" tennis with the looping top spin strokes and her serve is weak. She plays a defensive game not an aggressive one. These things are the reason she is not winning on a consistent basis as she use it.

IMHO the game is the best ever for several reasons. There are no "glaring and huge" differences in talent between the #1 seed though #16. They are some players have the ability to be #1 now but many do not. Today's players move better, serve better and are better athletes overall then in years past. Now the equipment differently helps today's players, but one's equipment is only going to get them so far. The down period in the women's tennis were the years of 1997 to 2001 & 2007 to 2009. Half of the top 12 players were good but it was still a large gap,


Past champions and experts are looking a "dominant" player on the women's side when they critique the women's game. Because they're isn't a "dominant" woman's player other than Serena, they feel the game is lacking. There are players like Kvitova, Azarenka, Serena W, Maria S and Agie Radwanska can all beat each other on any given day if they are playing their best tennis. Other players like Na, Petrova, Errani, Pennetta, Stosur are have chances to make to finals. I don't recall a time in tennis in the last 40 years than had so much talent in the top 12 seeds.

Some of the so- called experts sometimes in my opinion are not looking the overall quality of the game when they compare past decade players to the current players. Graf and Seles were light years ahead of the other women's tennis players talent wise. Another players I loved growing up was Gabriella Sabatini; how many championships and titles did she beat Graf in? one. The difference in the mid 90s between Graf, Seles, and Sanchez Vicario vs the lower seeds were great and wide.

Martina Hingis, if she played as she did from 1997 to 2000 would not win a GS tourney in today's game. She would be a top 10 player possibly but not GS contender.

But I guess we'll have agree to disagree. Good debate though

[kylet3]

So glad Canada is staying in the DC World Group.

Now, bring on the draw. This Wednesday, 6 am Eastern.

we drew Spain, the only advantage is that we are at home but oy, this is going to be near impossible to win.

[Alex Forrest]

I don't think it's actual stupidity that makes people bring the issue of drugs up every time they see a female athlete (or male) with huge muscles and big success. I think many of us have become pretty cynical about successful athletes after so many have eventually been caught cheating in some way. You really don't know who is clean and who isn't, especially after many of those cheaters tested clean for many years.

What I don't understand is why doesn't USADA just do hair follicle tests on their athletes every three months or so. Urine tests are just about not doing it one to two weeks in advance. Just enforce hair follicle drug tests. And if you show up to competition completely shaved you are DQd.

As much as I am an uber fan of Serena's (as I was Lance's) I'm not blind. She's 30 years old dominating in a sport that is traditionally a younger adult's sport (16-24). Of course there are exceptions, but Serena came back from close to a year off for medical issues, and she's back in amazingly amazing form. A 30 y/o. I suppose it is possible, but I'm not naive. Why not just do a hair follicle test on Serena? The drug tester came, and she flees to her panic room and calls police. It's weird.

As for GOAT, well, she completely dominated Graf in so many matches, it was unreal. Christine Evert? Hell, Chrissie would never have gotten a racket on any of Serena's serves and groundies. I still feel that Martina Navratilova is the GOAT, she had power and finesse and an all-court game. I do hope that Serena gets to 19. Heck, I want her fierce self to play until she's forty. Margaret Smith Court's record (24) is SOOOOO misleading because NO ONE played the Aussie Open in the 60s except Aussies, so of course ten or twelve of her titles are from that Open. It is a joke.

Serena has to be included in the top three players of all time.

[judgejudy27]

Graf and Serena only played 2 matches, both when Graf was 30 years old (and the same year Serena had her breakthrough winning the U.S Open and 5 tournaments) and both ended 7-5 in the 3rd set, with one winning each. Well an exhibition tournament match too where Graf won 6-4, 6-2. My female GOAT list would be:

1. Court
2. Graf
3. Navratilova
4. Evert
5. Serena

However most peoples at this point seems to be:

1. Graf
2. Serena
3. Navratilova
4. Evert
5. Court

Regarding Court and the Australian Open even had everyone played she probably wins about 7 (as opposed to the 11 she did) so would still have about 20 slams, more than Martina, Chris, or Serena, and only less than the Seles stab aided Graf. Court also has the record for most combined singles/doubles slams with 62, most singles tournament titles with 199, and highest ever career win percentage in singles with Evert 2nd highest and Graf 3rd (Navratilova and Serena both way behind Court and Evert).