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  1. #121
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    Why all the nastiness?

    Kwan won her last World title in March 2003 (her first season with Artunian). By then she had already reduced her jump content from its peak. She was no longer doing 3T-3T. Her jumps may have been bigger but they were beginning to be less reliable. 7 triple performances became 6 or even 5. Jumping errors, which were so rare before, began to appear even by SLC. She was 3rd in 2004, her last World medal. I think it is fair to say by then her body was just not capable of what it was earlier in her career.

    I realize 6 triples is a lot by today's standard, but even in her 2003 win, she was outjumped by Sokolova. Kwan won it because of the overall quality of her skating and her presentation.
    Last edited by Susan M; 09-16-2012 at 06:18 AM.

  2. #122
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    I think people are just saying that you can't really judge Arutunian's skill as a technical coach with Kwan considering that we all know now that she had developed serious hip problems during 2004-2006. Despite all of that, he was able have Kwan elevate her jumps in ways she hadn't before. Shame about her injury.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  3. #123
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    Why all the negativity toward Arutunian and Kwan, and all the OT discussion about Kwan's "jump content" Susan M? You're in the wrong thread if you're interested in dissecting Kwan's skating career and rewriting history with your misbegotten "recollections."

    BTW, Kwan was not known for consistently finessing triple/ triples in her career, altho' she sure did land 'em when she needed to on a couple of notable occasions, when her supposedly more jump-tastic rivals failed to deliver. And btw, how many World titles and Olympic medals does Sokolova have? Geesh, you make it sound like Kwan needed a walker to make her way out onto the ice in the latter years of her career. Fact of the matter is, Kwan maintained a high level of excellence and consistency throughout her career. The fact she did not medal at Worlds in 2004 does not mean she was no longer delivering stellar performances. Even the bozo who rushed onto the ice during Kwan's warm-up in Dortmund was unable to rattle her or break her focus. If you wish, count the number of so-called "jump errors" Kwan made in the last several years of her career. Better yet, make a list of all the "jump errors" she made throughout her career, and have fun doing it since you seem so obsessed about it. More than any other skater in the history of figure skating, Michelle Kwan consistently came pretty close to perfection every time she stepped out on the ice. Maybe you need to tell your "recollections" to stop being so "nasty" and so "unreliable."

    If your itch hasn't been scratched yet, please start your own nasty "Recollections of Kwan's jump errors and physical decline" thread.

    Back on topic, please!

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I think people are just saying that you can't really judge Arutunian's skill as a technical coach with Kwan considering that we all know now that she had developed serious hip problems during 2004-2006.
    Isn't that more or less what I said that started all the insults?
    "Of course, she was already beginning her physical decline by the time she went to him." My point was precisely what you said - I didn't want to unfairly fault him for overseeing the latter part of her career.

  5. #125
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    ^^ Uh boy! Go back and read what you said, and get all your friends and like-minded enemies together with your "recollections" and have a party. OR PLEASE, start another thread about the "unfairly faulted" Arutunian "overseeing the latter part of her career."

    Back on topic, please!


    ETA:
    Here's something positive ... a short but sweet montage tribute to Rafael Arutunian:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGs0d6lHnoc

    Jeffrey Buttle perfect in red & black at Worlds 2008:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=ypNSQb9heLA

    also in red & black -- AdaRipp's Nats sp 2012:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anBIXvZxq_Q

    and this fun tribute from an AdaRipp fan:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3PL787Aayc

    Adam Rippon Strikes Back!

    Good luck Adam and Rafael! I look forward to seeing you guys together in the kiss 'n cry.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 09-16-2012 at 09:02 AM.

  6. #126
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    Why do you keep demanding people go "back on topic" when you're the one writing the off-topic and incoherent paragraphs of rage? Adding in a small positive message at the end doesn't mask the insinuations and insults.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Why all the nastiness?

    Kwan won her last World title in March 2003 (her first season with Artunian).
    Kwan won the 2003 World title with Scott Williams as her "coach".

  8. #128

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    Getting back to Adam, maybe this was already answered but isn't it risky changing coaches so close to the competitive season? Shouldn't a change had been made earlier in the off season so coach and student could get use to each other before the pressure of competition or does it really not matter?

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by judiz View Post
    Getting back to Adam, maybe this was already answered but isn't it risky changing coaches so close to the competitive season? Shouldn't a change had been made earlier in the off season so coach and student could get use to each other before the pressure of competition or does it really not matter?
    Going out to California for a few weeks this summer was smart instead of following and settling at the rink with his choreographer. I think that is what got him into trouble. He went to Wilson and stayed with Orser he went to Pasquale and stayed with Dungjen. It seems to me his focus was more on the programs than the coach. AFAIK Adam went out to California after he left Orser and was something happened that he couldn't go.

    Since 2008 he won a US National Junior Gold, Junior GP Final Gold, two Junior Worlds titles, 4 Continents Gold, a couple of GP medals and US Championship Men Silver, .....what a slouch!

  10. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Muscling through jumps is done when the technique is lacking and is a very poor substitute for it. Jumping through brute force puts a lot of strain on the back and you're extremely unlikely to achieve consistency this way.

    Obviously a reasonable level of fitness is required but you need nowhere as much strength as in some other sports where technique is much more crude.

    It's all about controlling your entry edge (and your whole posture) and timing your entry right. If you do it well, those will provide you the lift off.

    One thing that does help a lot is core strength and stamina. So having lean but dense muscles, being able to control your posture very well. Hence pilates and yoga and not weight training are the preferred skater off-ice activity. Being too muscular is an impediment because it makes you too heavy.
    Oh I agree adding bulky muscle won't help him. However, he seems to have hit a plateau as a senior. I haven't noticed any increase in his speed or spring. What he does, he does well, so I think he pays attention to technique. He was highly successful at the junior level so I don't know why he would lack confidence. As a skater I would be looking at my fitness regimen at this point.

    It is also possible to over-train. Training to the point of exhaustion every day will lead to a sluggish performance on competition day and impede your progress. It's easier said than done to find the right balance, and everyone's body is different.

    I also agree that he is running the risk of having "too many voices in his head" (as Scott Hamilton would say) by changing coaches so often. A jump is a jump, but every coach breaks it down differently and gives you different exercises to practice. When you start having problems that is what you fall back on.

    Apparently it is a done deal so I hope the move works for him.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by judiz View Post
    Getting back to Adam, maybe this was already answered but isn't it risky changing coaches so close to the competitive season? Shouldn't a change had been made earlier in the off season so coach and student could get use to each other before the pressure of competition or does it really not matter?
    Ideally perhaps. But obviously things don't always transpire in the most favorable way to align with the start of a new season (e.g. Marley/ Brubaker split).

    Also, I haven't seen anything reported stating the exact chronology of Adam's decision-making. IOW, we don't know for sure when he started thinking about making a coaching change.* Someone (axel12345) posted earlier that Adam did try out with Rafael prior to making a final decision.

    And yes, it probably doesn't matter since the season hasn't started and they are now working together. Also, they are both very experienced in dealing with pressure: Rafael as a coach and a former competitor, and Adam as a competitor.

    ETA:
    * Correction: The USFS press release linked upthread quotes Adam as follows:

    After the World Championships, I had time to reflect on the season and came to the conclusion that I needed to take a different approach. Over the summer, I received the suggestion to travel to Lake Arrowhead and work with Rafael. I'm confident the move will be a positive one as I move forward in my career...
    Last edited by aftershocks; 09-16-2012 at 08:47 PM.

  12. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    ...
    One thing that does help a lot is core strength and stamina. So having lean but dense muscles, being able to control your posture very well. Hence pilates and yoga and not weight training are the preferred skater off-ice activity. Being too muscular is an impediment because it makes you too heavy.
    Wasn't that Michael Weiss's problem some years back? I seem to remember a period when he he really bulked up his upper body and that seemed to throw off his jumps.
    My job requires me to be a juggler, but that does not mean that I enjoy working with clowns.

  13. #133
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    I do think that most coaches are in agreement that lean with a strong core is best for a singles skaters-- I do not know what Jason was thinking by bulking Adam up so much but he is a new coach certainly very new with elite skaters.

    I agree with most of your take, but I think he has done well as a senior and far better than most that he came up with.

    He managed to score in the top 20 scores and ISU rankings for the past 5 seasons- including this one, he won a 4CC Gold, 6th at his first Worlds Championship. He beat a couple of former world champions at the Japan Open and picked up a couple of GP medals, not to mention this year earned a Men's Silver at US Championships. He placed a consistent 4th at both senior GP this season and at 4CC just a point or so away from third- mostly because he included a quad that may not have been ready for prime time. His axel while not that petty were consistent for the points and they actually saved him from falling below 4th. This year, World Championships for all three DSC skaters was a collective meltdown and I think there were added issues there that we will never know. I think we expected so much from Adam that if he fails to reach the podium he is washed up.

    As far as his basics here is what some said about baby Adam in 2008: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fM3A0c9WOE

    I've had a soft spot for him since he helped me master (?) my sit spin at camp in NJ a few years back and was thrilled he was moving to DSC.
    I never thought that Dungjen was a good match- friendly guy but did not have the technical expertise to help him. He doesn't need a nice coach he needs a coach with a strong personality and an experienced eye- one voice in a method style that he was brought up with. I am glad that the time is better for everyone and that he is finally going to Arrowhead. Good luck adaripp we will miss you.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    If you don't have a 3A in juniors, it's probably not going to happen in seniors. I'd like to be wrong, but I'm betting I'm not. There aren't going to be many more "next seasons" for Adam to get it together. I fear the same will be the case for Kozuka.
    Adam did have a 3A in juniors (see earlier link to his 2009 Junior Worlds fp).

    Patrick Chan did not have a solid 3A when he debuted in seniors; Evan has technique problems on his 3A; Lambiel never had a consistently reliable 3A. Hasn't seemed to seriously hurt the chances of these champion skaters (even despite Lambiel struggling badly in his later seasons with the 3A and with injuries -- he's still a two-time World champion, an Olympic silver medalist, and a two-time GPF champion). Also, Kozuka is a World silver medalist.

    I suppose you figure Jason Brown is all washed up too. Of course the 3A is important in the Men's senior ranks and Jason needs it to continue being competitive. But I don't think it's exactly the end of the world that Jason hasn't yet mastered the 3A. FS is about much more than just the jumps.

    Of course, Adam needs to regain confidence, control and precision with his 3A. Obviously, Adam is working on doing just that. I can't wait to see his new programs.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel12345 View Post
    Going out to California for a few weeks this summer was smart instead of following and settling at the rink with his choreographer. I think that is what got him into trouble. He went to Wilson and stayed with Orser he went to Pasquale and stayed with Dungjen. It seems to me his focus was more on the programs than the coach. AFAIK Adam went out to California after he left Orser and was something happened that he couldn't go.

    Since 2008 he won a US National Junior Gold, Junior GP Final Gold, two Junior Worlds titles, 4 Continents Gold, a couple of GP medals and US Championship Men Silver, .....what a slouch!
    Evan announced his return.

  16. #136

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    ^^ This. Adam wanted to work with Frank Carroll, but Carroll was waiting for Evan to return.
    Last edited by seabm7; 09-17-2012 at 06:20 AM. Reason: Carroll, not Carol

  17. #137
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    And so, Evan did not end up returning last season, but apparently he is returning this season (unless prevented by his reported injury). And Adam is now where he previously wished to be, but working with Rafael Arutunian as his main coach, and Frank Carroll consulting. IMO, the best possible scenario.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    And so, Evan did not end up returning last season, but apparently he is returning this season (unless prevented by his reported injury). And Adam is now where he previously wished to be, but working with Rafael Arutunian as his main coach, and Frank Carroll consulting. IMO, the best possible scenario.
    With this I totally agree- Arutyunyan is a better fit as a primary coach. I think Frank is a huge asset too- it is a win win

  19. #139
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    Hopefully Arutunian and Carroll could not only fix his 3axel but also get him to work his ass off on the quads. The sal and the lutz never materialized.

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