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  1. #341

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    This short program is absolutely breathtaking! I love that 2 of Jeff Buttle's programs are in the Grand Prix final and that the short he choreographed for Hanyu has the world record - 1st and 2nd place!


    What? No comments after the GPF freeskate?
    Last edited by The Accordion; 12-08-2012 at 08:52 PM.

  2. #342

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    Patrick must be quite disappointed. It's tough time for him.
    Technically he's been struggled on his 4T landings throughout this event. But programs are getting better and he definitely connects to the music more than ever before.

    I just wanna tell Patrick that those two programs are beautiful and touching.

    I hope we'll see his smile at the Gala and he'll find some nice places to take a breather at Sochi.

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    Well- as the CBC commentators have been saying this season - it is more that others are closing the gap than Patrick's difficulties. In the past he had enough wiggle room for mistakes with the points he would gain. But 3 of the men's freeskates today are in the top 10 freeskate scores! So the wiggle room has now been swallowed up and a Chan with mistakes is no longer safe.
    There are a bunch of things I like about that.
    1/The heat is off Chan in that if he makes mistakes he will often be beaten - so the Chan bashing can settle down.
    2/ It shows he was right not to rest on his laurels - and as much as it has caused growing pains - focusing on his artistry is really important.
    3/ I think a Patrick Chan who went unchallenged between now and the Olympics would be a bored Patrick Chan. Boredom doesn't lead to much growing or enthusiasm. Therefore - the challenge will push him.

    All good things IMO

    The one thing I am worried about though is whether His current coaching situation is at the root of some of the mistakes he has been making. I get the feeling his previous coaches were really thorough with him and had found ways to make sure he didn't do things like the Zayak rule breaking etc. Maybe it is just him with a bit too much on his mind at the moment - but maybe it is Kathy Johnson's lack of experience of being completely in chage of an elite skater.

  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Accordion View Post
    Well- as the CBC commentators have been saying this season - it is more that others are closing the gap than Patrick's difficulties. In the past he had enough wiggle room for mistakes with the points he would gain. But 3 of the men's freeskates today are in the top 10 freeskate scores! So the wiggle room has now been swallowed up and a Chan with mistakes is no longer safe.
    There are a bunch of things I like about that.
    1/The heat is off Chan in that if he makes mistakes he will often be beaten - so the Chan bashing can settle down.
    2/ It shows he was right not to rest on his laurels - and as much as it has caused growing pains - focusing on his artistry is really important.
    3/ I think a Patrick Chan who went unchallenged between now and the Olympics would be a bored Patrick Chan. Boredom doesn't lead to much growing or enthusiasm. Therefore - the challenge will push him.

    All good things IMO

    The one thing I am worried about though is whether His current coaching situation is at the root of some of the mistakes he has been making. I get the feeling his previous coaches were really thorough with him and had found ways to make sure he didn't do things like the Zayak rule breaking etc. Maybe it is just him with a bit too much on his mind at the moment - but maybe it is Kathy Johnson's lack of experience of being completely in chage of an elite skater.
    Good post and the bold part is what worry me the most. Twice now in this season that Patrick has committed this kind of error which should have been avoided if his coaches had set out all possible scenarios with him if things went wrong, it seems this hasn't been done for this season. I'm more than happy with his artistic growth but if he kept making this type of errors, he'll be off the podium soon enough because the TES Fernandez and Hanyu are doing are monstrous.

  5. #345
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    It's true Kathy is an unusual choice for a head coach and lacks for experience as an elite figure skating expert, but you would think that having been hired for the job, the very least she could do is study up on the black and white, and have it at the tip of her fingertips at all times like a second language, to pull out as soon as her client requires the support. If fans can access the rulebook, she should be glued to it. So she must have a good understanding of the COP system?! It's all so odd to me.

  6. #346

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    FYI, Patrick made same kind of mistakes under some professional coaches, IE, 2008 World (Don Laws) and 2010 COR (Christy Krall).
    Actually I remember Patrick said "I'll never do it again" kind of thing at COR press conference.

    So we can't blame coaches. Patrick is responsible for this.
    I think Patrick was upset when he failed the first 4T and couldn't add 3T after the second 4T. If he knew the scores of Havi and Yuzu, he surely realized that he could not surpass them with a fall and "4T+SEQ."

    It's very tough situation for Patrick. The vase values of Yuzu, Havi, Dai and Kozuka are all higher than Patrick's. So if they did well, Patrick needs almost perfect performance to win.

  7. #347
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    Yes those kind of 'mental mistakes' seem out of character for Chan but I give him all the credit in the world for going with his gut and taking this risk. I believe that if it doesn't work out he'll admit that and change things again. The fact is the rest of the world has caught up with him and it isn't going to be easy but I am loving the programs this year, I really 'feel' them in a way I didn't in the past and that can only be a positive thing. Still not giving up hope for the season and I try to look on the bright side. Maybe the haters can take a break and find a new target for a while. Just long enough for Patrick to sneak up again and take Olympic gold

  8. #348

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Accordion View Post
    What? No comments after the GPF freeskate?
    You're , TA.

    I am worried with his miscalculations on the jumps, and I agree with fscric that Patrick and his coach should work out the different scenarios in case of failed jumps. I hope Patrick will do something about that.

    I don't think Patrick ever think that he can beat his competitors with falls. Based on the interviews, his errors started after the first quad fall and he just couldn't tag the right jump to his other jumps to make up for that mistake. His competitors now have quads so the game plan has changed from last year where his strongest competitors didn't have quads. His competitors didn't have perfect skates and quads last year and that allowed him to win with a fall or two just like Daisuke and Hanyu winning with falls this season. I do hope Patrick and those surrounding him know what he must do as the season progresses into 2013 where IMO is the most important season leading to Sochi 2014. Hey, if any of you are attending the forthcoming CSOI shows hwere Patrick will be performing, please give Patrick a hug and tell him we wish him all the best, are worried for him but still love him .....even though his hair is super-short, he wears see-through lace top and make silly falls.

    The Accordion, haterzz will be haterzz. It's an obsessive compulsive disorder of the mind which only psychiatrists may be able to help. Patrick not winning will not calm them. We may have to accept the fact that sanity is boring so we need madness to remind us the value reason and logic.
    Last edited by spikydurian; 12-09-2012 at 05:48 AM.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by ali_dorate View Post
    FYI, Patrick made same kind of mistakes under some professional coaches, IE, 2008 World (Don Laws) and 2010 COR (Christy Krall).
    Actually I remember Patrick said "I'll never do it again" kind of thing at COR press conference.

    So we can't blame coaches. Patrick is responsible for this.


    “Almost 90 per cent of the time I practice a quad-toe-triple-toe, so it was a bit of a curveball. I never do triple Lutz-triple toe. I had to think on my feet.

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/figure...o-long-program

    I was quite surprised to read that statement Patrick made after his SP skate at the GPF because it was the triple Lutz/triple toe that kept him in the lead in the short program at last year's Worlds and a couple other competitions. So it shouldn't have been about thinking on his feet in Sochi but just automatically doing what he had done in previous similar situations when the quad/triple combination had failed him in the short.

    It's very tough situation for Patrick. The vase values of Yuzu, Havi, Dai and Kozuka are all higher than Patrick's. So if they did well, Patrick needs almost perfect performance to win.
    Patrick's jump content has been the same since 2011 Worlds and now that Patrick has been convinced that the judges are willing to give him higher choreography/interpretation marks this season than in past seasons, I do hope he will return to the tech side and try to raise the difficulty of his long program. A skater who moved from no quads in 2010 to 2 quads in 2011 should be able to do it.
    Last edited by VarBar; 12-09-2012 at 05:48 AM.

  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    You're , TA.





    The Accordion, haterzz will be haterzz. It's an obsessive compulsive disorder of the mind which only psychiatrists may be able to help. Patrick not winning will not calm them. We may have to accept the fact that sanity is boring so we need madness to remind us the value reason and logic.
    Love this comment! Sanity is boring that is why some of us enjoy sparring with others who are off their meds or in an institution!

  11. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Accordion View Post
    3/ I think a Patrick Chan who went unchallenged between now and the Olympics would be a bored Patrick Chan. Boredom doesn't lead to much growing or enthusiasm. Therefore - the challenge will push him..
    This article below with several quotes from Patrick that I bumped into reminded me of Alexei Yagudin, another champion of figure skating I was a supporter of in the past. Yagudin too went through very difficult times in the 1999-2000 and particularly the 2000-2001 season - with no coach or choreographer changes whatsoever - but Yagudin admitted publicly that he had developed stage fright and had lost his joy for skating only long after retiring from eligible competition, unlike Chan opening his heart now.
    Just to give you a quick example, if you had had a chance to see Yagudin compete at Japan Open 2000, you would have been tempted to think he wouldn't be able to win anything anymore unless all his rivals totally fell apart because he had just four triple jumps to do there and he messed up the landing on as many as three of those jumps. So perhaps someone should tell Patrick that he is in pretty good company. lol The more so as Chan told a reporter a few years ago that Yagudin was his Olympic hero.

    http://en.rsport.ru/other_sports/201...634949398.html

    I personally feel it's the pressure of being at the top of the men's field last season and two seasons ago at the root of Chan's current issues and somehow I had expected that because you just can't win all the time while knowing the other guys are after your titles and will want to gun you down figuratively speaking. Hopefully Chan will overcome his insecurities and bounce back sooner or later because yes, I agree, the challenge would be supposed to push him and give him new motivation. And he is a really brilliant skater.

  12. #352
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    After reading his comment on the icenetwork article, I started to think that he is not afraid of being defeated, but rather tired of being blamed whatever he did. Haters gonna hate, it's one thing he knows well but if it continues like last 3~4 years I don't think anyone who is able to not think of it.
    The technical scoring situation is also quite bad for Patrick heading into the Olympics. The requirements on the Lv 4 step sequence have been reduced and now almost everyone gets PCS boosts as well. Although Patrick is still one of the most reliable quad jumpers in the field I don't have a high hope on his 4S and don't think he can do 2 3As in the free skating.(I sincerely hope I am proven to be wrong.)
    I believe in him and his team do whatever to progress but cannot help becoming pessimistic. Which is so bitter, since I keep amused seeing him growing as a fantastic skater in every aspect especially since after Vancouver and think he deserves the prize and praises he wants so much.

  13. #353
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    After a couple of COP mistakes, I am starting to think perhaps his programs are just too busy and require too much focus for him to think on his feet and NOT do that 2toe after the 2axel.

    instead, he needs to have his plan B worked out in advance.

  14. #354
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    I'm more concerned about the popped jumps. Popped jumps are worse than falling, and he's done so in his three GP events.

    At this point, I'd hope for the best, but it might take him falling completely off the podium at Worlds before he realizes how important a technical coach is.

  15. #355

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Accordion View Post
    The one thing I am worried about though is whether His current coaching situation is at the root of some of the mistakes he has been making. I get the feeling his previous coaches were really thorough with him and had found ways to make sure he didn't do things like the Zayak rule breaking etc. Maybe it is just him with a bit too much on his mind at the moment - but maybe it is Kathy Johnson's lack of experience of being completely in chage of an elite skater.
    I don't recall Chan ever zayacking before and have had a bad feeling about this coaching change ever since it was announced.

  16. #356

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    Quote Originally Posted by vigiliae View Post
    After reading his comment on the icenetwork article, I started to think that he is not afraid of being defeated, but rather tired of being blamed whatever he did. Haters gonna hate, it's one thing he knows well but if it continues like last 3~4 years I don't think anyone who is able to not think of it.

    Reading that comment -"[the lower scores] will please some people."- gave a real shock to me.

    I've never heard such a "negative" comment from him on his defeat before. He has been an athlete who always maintains a positive attitude and tries to see the bright side of what he experienced.
    Yes, he has not lost that mentality as he said "there were a lot of good things:the triple Axel, the triple loop."
    But "[the lower scores] will please some people."?? That's not the bright side!

    I don't know in what situation ( to what question) he made this comment but it's quite unusual.

    He has been asked time and again silly questions by the media such as, "Why do you think your score is so high?," "There are people who claim your score is too high. What do you think?" and so on.
    Maybe there was someone who asked same kind of silly question at the press conference. I can't believe he said that comment without being asked any question.

    Anyway I think the most important thing for Patrick is to regain self-confidence. To believe in his practice.
    I don't think it's a good idea to add 4S or second 3A right now because he has not find his own rhythm especially in FS. Rather, if and when he nails two quad and one 3A constantly like in last season, he is still unbeatable because he can put much pressure on his rivals with higher vase values as Kurt once said on a Podcast.

    (Still I'm not sure if it's good for Patrick to win 2013 Worlds. Heading into Olympic as a three time World Champion is too much pressure to bear. Having strong competitions and sharing the pressure with them would be a favorable condition.)
    Last edited by ali_dorate; 12-10-2012 at 12:01 PM.

  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    I don't recall Chan ever zayacking before and have had a bad feeling about this coaching change ever since it was announced.
    Chan did zayak before, at 2008 Worlds and 2010 Cup of Russia as ali_dorate pointed out upthread. Maybe he's zayaking once every two years? There's other skaters who've been zayaking every now and then although they've always had technical coaches supervising their practices, so I'm not sure it's that. But I too have been feeling uncomfortable about Chan not having a qualified tech person by his side.

    Quote Originally Posted by ali_dorate View Post
    I don't think it's a good idea to add 4S or second 3A right now because he has not find his own rhythm especially in FS. Rather, if and when he nails two quad and one 3A constantly like in last season (except 2012 Worlds), he is still unbeatable because he can put much pressure on his rivals with higher vase values as Kurt once said on a Podcast.
    Didn't he nail two quads and the 3A in the free skate at 2012 Worlds? I remember he did. Should Patrick not add another quad or a second 3A to his LP, he would know that he would need to skate cleanly each time he competed with skaters who have more difficult jump content than he does and that would constantly put extra pressure on him IMO.

    Anyway I think the most important thing for Patrick is to regain self-confidence. To believe in his practice.
    I agree as I feel he is not trusting his training enough and perhaps that's where a tech coach would come into the picture? Chan taking more responsibility for his training might not be such a bright idea though.

    (Still I'm not sure if it's good for Patrick to win 2013 Worlds. Heading into Olympic as a three time World Champion is too much pressure to bear. Having strong competitions and sharing the pressure with them would be a favorable condition.)
    Agree.

  18. #358

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    Quote Originally Posted by ali_dorate View Post
    Reading that comment -"[the lower scores] will please some people."- gave a real shock to me.

    I've never heard such a "negative" comment from him on his defeat before. He has been an athlete who always maintains a positive attitude and tries to see the bright side of what he experienced.
    Patrick has always been aware that his marks have been questioned when he makes mistakes. He is probably right that some people will be happy to see his lower scores. But at the same time, his attempts to expand his artistic range have won him new fans this seasons, and the Chan hate has abated.

    (Still I'm not sure if it's good for Patrick to win 2013 Worlds. Heading into Olympic as a three time World Champion is too much pressure to bear. Having strong competitions and sharing the pressure with them would be a favorable condition.)
    I agree. He absolutely does not want to peak in 2013 and needs to hold something back for Sochi.

    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar
    Should Patrick not add another quad or a second 3A to his LP, he would know that he would need to skate cleanly each time he competed with skaters who have more difficult jump content than he does and that would constantly put extra pressure on him IMO.
    I don't know about that. The 3A is his weakest jump. IMO he should seek to maximize points elsewhere, unless the 3A becomes consistent. That said, he's been improving on it steadily.


    Anyway I think the most important thing for Patrick is to regain self-confidence. To believe in his practice.
    I agree as I feel he is not trusting his training enough and perhaps that's where a tech coach would come into the picture? Chan taking more responsibility for his training might not be such a bright idea though.
    ITA. But I don't know if Chan can see that. It would be a shame for him to a lose an OG becomes he takes responsibility that should be handed over to an appropriate coach. Back to Krall, for example?

  19. #359

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    VarBar, there seems to be a weird coincidence that Yag was fifth in his first Olympics and took time off 'to improve his artistry' too prior to the 2002 Olympic season! I like Yag too and his 2002 Olympic programs were absolutely brilliant.

    ali dorate, where is the article where Patrick said, ‘his low marks will please some people’? Vigilae is right. Haters will be haters (that’s their job and past time). Most importantly, Patrick needs to know who are those who truly care? And he needs to ‘skate for himself’ and not try too hard to please others. The reality is that in trying to please everyone we please no one. There is a lot of pressure as two time World Champion and being unbeatable in the 2011-2012 season to continue the winning streak which IMO is not easy to maintain without risking injuries with the continuous intensive training. Perhaps, maybe Kurt or PJ can have a chat with Patrick?

    Emdee is going to watch CSOI this weekend, and we can ask her to convey our heartfelt messages to Patrick and the other skaters. Hear hear Emdee, you are our official emissary.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  20. #360

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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    Didn't he nail two quads and the 3A in the free skate at 2012 Worlds? I remember he did.
    Of course he did. My bad. Sorry Patrick! You did great 4Ts and 3A. (I'll correct my post.)

    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    ali dorate, where is the article where Patrick said, ‘his low marks will please some people’?
    It's from Icenetwork as vigiliae suggested.
    http://web.icenetwork.com/news/artic...&vkey=ice_news
    "A lot of critics were upset that I was getting rewarded for elements that weren't executed well, so, hopefully, [the lower scores] will please some people."
    BTW, I saw the EX on TV today (Broadcast yesterday in Japan).
    He showed us his usual smile in his EX "Til Kingdom Come." But it made me sad all the more. And it made that EX so beautiful and emotional.
    I hope he'll relax and enjoy the performances with three former world champions at Celebration on Ice. Maybe lucky people will see the new EX with hat.

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