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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoskate View Post
    Hopefully they do, and I'm not disputing your basic point.

    However, there are lots of examples of technical coaches who don't necessarily know the rules as well as they should, which forces the skaters to figure things out for themselves. The best recent example might be Igor Shpilband and the rules regarding scoring of lifts in ice dance last season. Virtue/Moir were forced to figure out why their scores were not correct at the Grand Prix final, and that the scoring software was not working correctly, something that Igor absolutely should have figured out for them.

    So I think skaters should try to understand the rules themselves, so that they can protect themselves from any lack of knowledge on the part of their coaches. It's sort of an insurance policy against uninformed coaches.

    If skaters have done the work of looking at the rules in detail, they will also be more likely to be able to think on their feet if they want to change their program layout. IMO the best example of someone who did this, and was able to rework his programs as necessary because of his knowledge, is Jeff Buttle.
    Really? I thought that skaters could fully rely on their coaches to know how the system works and that coaches would for instance have their students practice several different jump scenarios in training to back up for whenever Plan A failed.

    The second paragraph in your post reminded me of a 2008-2009 post-competition phone conversation - don't recall the competition though - between Patrick and a Canadian reporter where the reporter asked Patrick if he knew what his scores meant and he responded something like "No, I don't understand all those numbers, I just know that if I do what my coach tells me to do, I'll be fine." But since Patrick decided to take more responsibility for his training, he would be supposed to be familiar with the IJS rules and, as an example, understand why he got level 3 on a spin and the footwork at Cup of Russia as opposed to level 4s at Skate Canada.


    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    Yes VarBar, I think we all tend to compare Elegy the Ex to Elegy the competitive and shortened piece and may find it harder to appreciate the competitive version as the Ex has more freedom to express itself.
    I could be all wrong but I feel that while a lot of Chan's fans aren't as thrilled with his new programs as they were with Lori's choreos for Patrick, a lot of non-Chan fans who never cared much for his past routines think he has the loveliest programs ever this season. Hmm, interesting.

    I'd much prefer Patrick to skate to Coldplay in his training outfit than the unispiring shirt and pants he wears at galas and shows.
    He looks so slender here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w457...feature=g-hist

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post

    But shouldn't he have done the second 2A in combination for that jump to count?

    Congrats to Patrick on earning his spot in the Grand Prix Final in such a totally convincing way.
    Yay, Patrick! Regarding your question, either way it would've not counted since he was maxed out on jump combos/sequences (max is 3 unless I'm mistaken). In hindsight, maybe he probably should've removed either the 2T at the end of the 3F/Lz (I can't remember which one it was) or the 2S from the jump sequence but maybe he didn't practice the scenario of him doubling his 3A...

    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post

    I could be all wrong but I feel that while a lot of Chan's fans aren't as thrilled with his new programs as they were with Lori's choreos for Patrick, a lot of non-Chan fans who never cared much for his past routines think he has the loveliest programs ever this season. Hmm, interesting.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w457...feature=g-hist
    I can't speak for anyone else but I love his new programs and I feel like his movement is more free; however, I also loved the ones that Lori choreographed for him. I think it's important as an artist to explore other avenues and obviously, David and Jeffrey have great choreographic credentials.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    I could be all wrong but I feel that while a lot of Chan's fans aren't as thrilled with his new programs as they were with Lori's choreos for Patrick, a lot of non-Chan fans who never cared much for his past routines think he has the loveliest programs ever this season. Hmm, interesting.

    I'd much prefer Patrick to skate to Coldplay in his training outfit than the unispiring shirt and pants he wears at galas and shows.
    He looks so slender here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w457...feature=g-hist
    Re the bold part, not me, I'm thrilled that he explores his potential working with Jeff Buttle and David Wilson and I love the outcome. I think these programmes challenge him and energize him, hoping they'll get better as the season goes and peak at the World.

  4. #244
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    Only triples and quadruples need to be in combination if repeated. You can do two solo 2As and be fine.

    I'd rank Elegy behind Exilados and La Boheme behind Aranjuez, at this point. Both of those programs were so beautifully choreographed to emphasize his unique skill set and, especially the long program, challenged his artistry in an interesting way,

  5. #245

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    I really enjoyed his programs at CoR and I am glad he qualified for the GPF.
    ~I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it.~ (Charles R. Swindoll)

  6. #246

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    I like Exilados because it is an exalting piece of music and it complements Patrick’s superb and super quick foot work. It may not fair to compare La Boheme with Aranjuez because I have seen his best skate of Aranjuez at Nationals. La Boheme is still developing. I actually like the music cut of La Boheme and think it’s very well done. This piece allows him to play different characters and emotions as per the opera, and I must say, it’s growing on me. I think it’s very ‘courageous’ of Patrick to take risk in exploring and expanding his range of choreography with Buttle and Wilson, and artistic movements with Johnson. I am sure he learns a lot from them just as he said, he has learnt a lot from Lori and other coaches. Each and everyone of them have played an important part in skating career as he has acknowledged in his interviews.

    As a fan of Patrick's skating, I was worried when he first made the changes but I can understand his point of exploring and expanding his skills. But having seen his improvements, I am more assured that all is coming together as planned. He did say that not all the changes were planned eg. the technical coach issue. Listening to his interviews on this issue, I think the split was not intended and expected on Patrick’s side but life is such that some times things may not work out the way we want and we need to move on and make the best out of it. I think he may get a technical coach next season. Well….. it’s all heresay from me. Only time will tell what Patrick and his 'team' will do. Meanwhile, I will continue to enjoy his skating and cheer him from my pathetic computer screeen. Wish I can watch him and other superb skaters live!!
    Last edited by spikydurian; 11-13-2012 at 08:16 AM.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  7. #247
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    His 4CC Exilados has always been a favourite of mine.

    I too am growing to love La Boheme. After a couple of watches without my heart in my mouth I too love the cuts of music. The music has stayed with me for the last couple of days and also his movement to it. I think it is on the way to becoming something special.

  8. #248
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    I posted this in the VM thread but it's also part Patrick so

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskati...es-doubts.html

    Scroll down for PJ, Kurt and Tracy and their awesome podcast. The first half is spent talking about Chan. I always love hearing analysts, coaches and experts break down his skating. As much as I already appreciate his glide, the difficulty, his talent, hearing them break down a 5 second section of footwork movement by movement is amazing.

  9. #249
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    For me both Exilados and Aranjuez are choreographically superior and challenged Patrick to a greater degree than his current programs. But, Patrick performs Elegy/ La Boheme with more emotion, and I guess that is what non-fans are responding to.


    Despite being pleased with Patrick's recent success, I still see a need to add a technical coach. I was never advocating replacing Kathy because I see the obvious improvements in Patrick's movement and expression. However, I noticed last year at SC Patrick would consult Kristy after a failed jump attempt during practice and observed the opposite from the COR practice videos. Patrick just skates around after a 3A fall and it's up to him to figure things out. I hope this not the long term strategy

  10. #250
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    Patrick Uber Thread - road to Sochi

    Quote Originally Posted by jl22aries View Post
    ...As much as I already appreciate his glide, the difficulty, his talent, hearing them break down a 5 second section of footwork movement by movement is amazing.
    I recall an interview with Kurt Browning talking about Patrick, in which he mentions there are things about Patrick's skating which only a judge or another skater could appreciate. He went on to say, they should record a video of Patrick's skating and use it as a teaching aid.
    Last edited by rvi5; 11-13-2012 at 11:51 PM.

  11. #251

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    I was watching his EX and his encore skate on the last section of La Boheme, and I could feel the overwhelming sadness and tragedy in that music and his skating which I have no doubt when fully developed will be all the more powerful emotionally. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1fiOxTWqYs
    Didn't really like Til Kingdom Come when he first skated ... but it's getting smoother and smoother .. yeah as someone said.... like wine! It can only get better with time.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  12. #252
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    re: Aranjuez

    From the Japan Open, I loved Aranjuez. Even with three falls, it was a mesmerizing program. The two performances he gave back to back at Nationals and 4CC were perhaps the highlight of the 2011/2012 season. The thing is, he'd been adding the choreographic details for a while - Exilados went from cool and precise to something more boldly assertive. But it really came to fruition here. The choreography after the triple loop. The whole sequence from the lutz to the double axel. And of course, those glorious footwork sequence - so fully choreographed, so alive to the emotion of the music and so in tune with the blade of Chan's skate that it's some of the best choreography I've ever seen. And that ending - after the passion - rest. It's not macho hipthrusting that so often defines masculinity, but a quieter, more introspective note. The opening and closing poses strike me as masculinity in repose.

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    That last step sequence, set to that particular tune from La Boheme, is special. Like, squeeze-my-heart-harkening-to-some-vague-moment-from-the-past-double-dipped-in-romance-and-nostalgia special.

  14. #254
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    Le Boheme vs Aranjuez

    I like both. Le Boheme is growing on me. However, I find Aranjuez has more highlights, esp the last part of the footwork. As for Le Boheme, the last part of footwork was not as "mind blowing" as Aranjuez.

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    Oh that footwork in Aranjuaz was magnificent, but this new one has a totally different feel to it, but I love it.
    Addicted to FSU

  16. #256

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    Anybody want a good laugh..........Read this: http://www.examiner.com/article/deth...s-year?cid=rss
    Addicted to FSU

  17. #257

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarie View Post
    Anybody want a good laugh..........Read this: http://www.examiner.com/article/deth...s-year?cid=rss
    Opinions about Chan aside, this is a very poorly written article.

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarie View Post
    Anybody want a good laugh..........Read this: http://www.examiner.com/article/deth...s-year?cid=rss
    Wow! Did she really write that on 13 Nov? Where was she this past weekend?

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    re: Aranjuez

    From the Japan Open, I loved Aranjuez. Even with three falls, it was a mesmerizing program. The two performances he gave back to back at Nationals and 4CC were perhaps the highlight of the 2011/2012 season. The thing is, he'd been adding the choreographic details for a while - Exilados went from cool and precise to something more boldly assertive. But it really came to fruition here. The choreography after the triple loop. The whole sequence from the lutz to the double axel. And of course, those glorious footwork sequence - so fully choreographed, so alive to the emotion of the music and so in tune with the blade of Chan's skate that it's some of the best choreography I've ever seen. And that ending - after the passion - rest. It's not macho hipthrusting that so often defines masculinity, but a quieter, more introspective note. The opening and closing poses strike me as masculinity in repose.
    Wonderfully described, Proustable.

    Aranjuez was love at first sight for me and I felt I could defend Patrick winning with misakes without lying to myself because I found the intricacy and difficulty of the choreographic detail and the variety of movement in that program just amazing and unbelievable.

    And Exilados was such a wild, unusual and interesting program for me and I think in both cases Lori gave Patrick great vehicles for him to show off his strenghts and what makes him unique as a skater. But I know quite a few people said Exilados was not a tango and quite a few people complained they didn't get a flamenco feel from Aranjuez.

    To cut a long story short, Patrick this years strikes me as a more marketable product to the general audiences than in past years because he is delivering some theatrics in La boheme thanks to Wilson's choreography.

    Quote Originally Posted by PCFan View Post
    Despite being pleased with Patrick's recent success, I still see a need to add a technical coach. I was never advocating replacing Kathy because I see the obvious improvements in Patrick's movement and expression. However, I noticed last year at SC Patrick would consult Kristy after a failed jump attempt during practice and observed the opposite from the COR practice videos. Patrick just skates around after a 3A fall and it's up to him to figure things out. I hope this not the long term strategy

    I've never been one of those screaming "Free Patrick Chan from Kathy Johnson" because I noticed how much he improved his arm and body movement under her guidance but I too am in favor of Chan having a technical coach by his side. I suspect he'll get one if he feels he needs additional assistance in his training.

    Since you brought up the triple axel again, here is the situation of Patrick's 3As last year at Japan Open and his two GP events as opposed to this season:

    2011

    Japan Open - FS - fully rotated/fall.
    Skate Canada - SP - popped into a double; FS - clean.
    TEB - SP - clean; FS - popped into a double.

    2012

    Japan Open - FS - fully rotated/fall.
    Skate Canada - SP - fully rotated/hand down; FS - underrotated/fall.
    Rostelecom Cup - SP - clean; FS - popped into a double.

    Kurt says in his analysis - thanks to jl22aries for the link - that Patrick doesn't have a great skid on the takeoff of the 3A and he sounds to me like he's suggesting it's quite difficult to fix that.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by fscric View Post
    Wow! Did she really write that on 13 Nov? Where was she this past weekend?
    I love this "gem" from the article:

    With all the strong competition in the Men's corner, snatching that Gold medal from Patrick Chan may be relatively effortless this year. But in the end, it will not be an easy win for the rest of the men competing.


    This makes no sense to me, but whatever - I won't give her opinions any weight. She definitely made some bold predictions two weeks into the beginning of the season.

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