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  1. #1

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    Cinquanta answers to "Minimun Scores" complains..

    Havent seen a thread discussing this already, so I apologize if already exists,

    http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archi...Scores%203.htm

    Your Thoughts??

    Key points:
    According to Speedy the federations were warned more than once that if they voted against the prelims the Council would have no choice but to use the minimun score card.

    He confirms the scores will be monitored and changed if there are too few or too many entries but he doesnt say what is the expected ideal number (Im betting on 30 for singles and 20 for dance/pairs).

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    I agree with George Rossano's comment below the letter that it would be materially unfair for the ISU to raise the TES scores after they have been announced for the year, and I hope that the ISU does not do that.

    I think this was a pick-your-poison situation. The members didn't want preliminary rounds and the conditions that accompanied them, so now they have qualifying standards. Not sure why they didn't pay attention or determine a better solution -- this was not a secret threat from the ISU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    The members didn't want preliminary rounds and the conditions that accompanied them, so now they have qualifying standards. Not sure why they didn't pay attention or determine a better solution -- this was not a secret threat from the ISU.
    Some of the members. There was an overall majority to retain them, but a 2/3 majority was needed. Several federations apparently also abstained.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

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    It was unfortunate that the 2/3 majority was not achieved. Anyway, it is history now. We have to live with it.

    I cannot imagine that the ISU will raise the minimum score for championships as it is not so easy to achieve even for skaters from the "middle level". If anything, it will be lowered.

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    Be careful of what we wish for in the first instance ...

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    Instead of guessing about an appropriate minimum score, why not just take the 30 highest ranked skaters by total score from the season? (or however deep you would need to go to abide by each country's maximum allotment). I guess the unpredictability of judging panels would prevent this from ever happening, but in a perfect world that might be an idea to consider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kubo View Post
    Instead of guessing about an appropriate minimum score, why not just take the 30 highest ranked skaters by total score from the season? (or however deep you would need to go to abide by each country's maximum allotment). I guess the unpredictability of judging panels would prevent this from ever happening, but in a perfect world that might be an idea to consider.
    That's what hopefully will happen in the end.

    ISU might use this as a way to get less than 30 skaters/20 teams to take part in ISU Championships though.

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    Instead of guessing about an appropriate minimum score, why not just take the 30 highest ranked skaters by total score from the season? (or however deep you would need to go to abide by each country's maximum allotment).
    This seems logical, but it has some drawbacks. For starters, it would really highlight the number of better skaters from the bigger federations left out of Worlds in favor of weaker skaters from other federations. In the current approach, while everyone knows that happens, we don't have the list and the numbers staring at us. (This isn't necessarily a drawback for fans, but not such good appearances from the ISU POV.)

    The other complication arises if a federation opts not to send their own most highly ranked skaters. USFS, for example, tends to rely heavily on the results from Nationals, which sometimes means a skater who is lower ranked internationally is put on the team in place of the skater who helped earn the slots the previous year. What happens if we have 3 slots, but our third skater is a youngster who has a lower qualifying score than other skaters from elsewhere who do not make the cut. Do we still get the third slot? Do we keep it only if we replace him/her with a skater with a higher score? This approach would really take a lot of flexibility away from the federations over which of their skaters to put on the World team. Also, late injury substitution of alternates could get tricky.

    I agree with George Rossano's comment below the letter that it would be materially unfair for the ISU to raise the TES scores after they have been announced for the year, and I hope that the ISU does not do that.
    I think it has been pretty obvious from the start that the ISU also agrees, which is why they set the numbers so high to begin with.

    The ISU regulations already specify a maximum field size for Worlds and I really expect the ISU will adjust the "minimums" to the full field size for Worlds.

    One oddity here - why does the ISU require a 2/3 majority to maintain the status quo? Supermajorities are normally used only to make a change. If the vote fails, then nothing changes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    The other complication arises if a federation opts not to send their own most highly ranked skaters. USFS, for example, tends to rely heavily on the results from Nationals, which sometimes means a skater who is lower ranked internationally is put on the team in place of the skater who helped earn the slots the previous year. What happens if we have 3 slots, but our third skater is a youngster who has a lower qualifying score than other skaters from elsewhere who do not make the cut. Do we still get the third slot? Do we keep it only if we replace him/her with a skater with a higher score? This approach would really take a lot of flexibility away from the federations over which of their skaters to put on the World team. Also, late injury substitution of alternates could get tricky.
    This isn't much different from how things were this past season. That hypothetical youngster or potential alternate from the U.S. would need to skate in another competition -- Junior Worlds, Four Continents, or a Senior "B."

    Actually, the problem wouldn't be so much for the skaters needing to get a higher score to qualify as for those who need to maintain their position on the Top Thirty (or whatever) list, since they wouldn't necessarily know if their score was still high enough until right before the pertinent championship.

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    Those are all great points. Maybe one solution to the concern raised by Vagabond would be to set a date (say mid-February / post 4CC) for the 30 qualifiers to be confirmed, and then allow up to 6 "wild card" berths for skaters able to exceed the lowest qualifying score after that date. That way, no one is bumped at the last minute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    I think this was a pick-your-poison situation. The members didn't want preliminary rounds and the conditions that accompanied them, so now they have qualifying standards. Not sure why they didn't pay attention or determine a better solution -- this was not a secret threat from the ISU.
    I suspect that even if they determined a better solution, getting the ISU to adopt it would be a whole different battle that they would lose. Because adopting an alternative solution that wasn't the ISU's idea would make the ISU look like they didn't know what they were doing originally.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    the problem wouldn't be so much for the skaters needing to get a higher score to qualify as for those who need to maintain their position on the Top Thirty (or whatever) list, since they wouldn't necessarily know if their score was still high enough until right before the pertinent championship.
    That's actually the situation I was thinking of. For a country who has 5 or 6 skaters with minimum scores, would there be a down side if #5 ended up winning the National Championship and got put on the World team, then ended up outside the top 30 due to some late qualifiers. I agree with those who think the current rule allowing skaters to qualify almost until the last minute is asking for problems. I'd agree there should be an earlier cutoff, and the date for submission of nominations seems a logical one (3 weeks before the event). How simple is this - don't nominate anybody who doesn't already have a qualifying score?

    Because adopting an alternative solution that wasn't the ISU's idea would make the ISU look like they didn't know what they were doing originally.
    I fear you are right, but if they really think like that they are all in need of some modern management training.

    Lesson 1 - Good ideas can come from anywhere.

    Lesson 2 - There is always room for improvement. (To be fair, the ISU does actually have a record of adjusting things based on experience.)
    Last edited by Susan M; 09-11-2012 at 04:49 AM.

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    Question, because I am confused about the whole thing.

    Let's say, hypothetically, Joshua Farris kicks some backside at Nationals and earns a spot on the Senior Worlds team.

    Does the TES he's earned on the JGP count, or would he have to find a Senior B between Nats and Worlds to earn a "Senior" TES?

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    The TES minimum scores can be earned at any "ISU recognized International Competition... during the ongoing or immediately preceding season in both segments" - see the relevant ISU Communication No. 1742 excerpt here: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...52&postcount=1
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

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    Scores earned at an international competition that is open, i.e., not limited by geography (rare, but noted on the international competition lists), holds the standard SP/SD and FS/FD segments, and has enough participants and judges from the minimum number of countries qualify for the Worlds TES minimums. Minimums can be met in more than one comp. The list of international competitions from last year is Communication 1676 and this year is Communication 1727.

    Farris, Brown, Yan, and Ten made both World TES minimums at Jr. Worlds last year. Bush and Zhang missed by less than a point in the SP; Bush made it in the FS. Zhang was the only one of the top nine men at Jr. Worlds who missed the TES minimum in the FS, and again Zhang missed by less than one point. For 4C's/Euros, only the bottom three Jr. men in the FS missed the TES minimum, and all but two qualifiers earned it in the SP. That's just one junior competition.

    I don't think it's the Junior Men who have to be concerned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    The TES minimum scores can be earned at any "ISU recognized International Competition... during the ongoing or immediately preceding season in both segments" - see the relevant ISU Communication No. 1742 excerpt here: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...52&postcount=1
    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Scores earned at an international competition that is open, i.e., not limited by geography (rare, but noted on the international competition lists), holds the standard SP/SD and FS/FD segments, and has enough participants and judges from the minimum number of countries qualify for the Worlds TES minimums. Minimums can be met in more than one comp. The list of international competitions from last year is Communication 1676 and this year is Communication 1727.

    Farris, Brown, Yan, and Ten made both World TES minimums at Jr. Worlds last year. Bush and Zhang missed by less than a point in the SP; Bush made it in the FS. Zhang was the only one of the top nine men at Jr. Worlds who missed the TES minimum in the FS, and again Zhang missed by less than one point. For 4C's/Euros, only the bottom three Jr. men in the FS missed the TES minimum, and all but two qualifiers earned it in the SP. That's just one junior competition.

    I don't think it's the Junior Men who have to be concerned.
    Cheers for the clarification guys. I forgot last season could be used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post

    I fear you are right, but if they really think like that they are all in need of some modern management training.
    They are long overdue for that, but seeing as they think they are doing just fine with things like negotiating TV contracts .....I am not sure how much impact any training would have on people who seem convinced that when things go wrong the fault always lies elsewhere.


    Lesson 2 - There is always room for improvement. (To be fair, the ISU does actually have a record of adjusting things based on experience.)
    As long as the adjustment suits their own definition of "improvement". Which unfortunately is not always a true change for the better.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    Since Canada had no lady with Worlds qualifying scores yet, I was watching for Amelie Lacoste's results at the Salt Lake City Senior B and thinking about these FSU threads on qualifying scores. With a clean short, she achieved the necessary score in the SP but in the free ...

    Her TES score: 47.99
    Qualifying Minimum score: 48.00

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Since Canada had no lady with Worlds qualifying scores yet, I was watching for Amelie Lacoste's results at the Salt Lake City Senior B and thinking about these FSU threads on qualifying scores. With a clean short, she achieved the necessary score in the SP but in the free ...

    Her TES score: 47.99
    Qualifying Minimum score: 48.00
    are there any allowances made for countries that are hosting worlds I think we should get a break
    Thanks to PI .. I discovered I'm actually a Nontheist

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Since Canada had no lady with Worlds qualifying scores yet, I was watching for Amelie Lacoste's results at the Salt Lake City Senior B and thinking about these FSU threads on qualifying scores. With a clean short, she achieved the necessary score in the SP but in the free ...

    Her TES score: 47.99
    Qualifying Minimum score: 48.00
    Doesn't Osmond have it?

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