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  1. #101

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    I'm glad to see that in-fact Patrick Chan's musicality is actually able to stir up strong emotions in people.
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 09-30-2012 at 12:13 AM.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    There are other skaters who can do that besides Takahashi.
    Nobody else can do it as well, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    To each his/her own. Some of us prefer the dramatic and expressive and some prefer the understated. Give me Patrick and Kozuka any time.
    Intense music calls for intense expression, understated music calls for understated expression. And so on. Movement should be appropriate to the music.

    What you are doing though is using 'understated' as an excuse for lacking performance skills and being too introverted on the ice instead of presenting out to the audience.

    Kozuka has good basics, good timing but zero style and looks like he couldn't care less when he is skating. Which is a real shame because it's a total waste of his abilities. And he does get hammered on the PCS as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    We all need to chill out before it gets too hot in here. (Anyway, you are bad Ziggy. You threw THE stone in the hornet's nest. Newton's third law: for every action there's an equal opposite reaction.)
    I assume that people who post on this board are adults (or teenagers) who are capable of critical thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    Chan also had different style of music, the jazzy Take 5 and the more classical Aranjez. You don't see it that doesn't mean it's not. It's just different taste. But to say that he doesn't have it is ridiculous.
    I wasn't talking about just picking different styles of music. I was talking showing different styles of movement, appropriately to the music chosen.

    You move very differently in a tango (sharp, staccato, etc.) and in a street dance (down in the knees, more fluid, etc.).

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post

    What you are doing though is using 'understated' as an excuse for lacking performance skills and being too introverted on the ice instead of presenting out to the audience.


    There are really different ideas on and perceptions of different performances whether it be skating or dancing and acting or other performances where there is an experience shared between audience and performer(s).

    It is never going to be the same for everyone. And no matter how many people agree or disagree about the experience or what background or training certain individuals have - it will never be simple or black and white enough for anyone to say that another person's experience or perception is wrong.

    There may be opinions that are more common - but even if there are 5000 people in the audience and 2 of them like something that none of the others do or vice versa - those 2 people are not wrong.

    And that is why there is so much passionate arguing on FSU and it seems some performers or performances divide people more than others. And some bring out the most passionate support or - the opposite - even hostility.

    I love watching Takahashi. I honestly think there is no one else quite like him and IMO he makes every piece of music his own and performs it so very very well - I buy it. There are other people who find his performances over the top and therefore not enjoyable. I can't say they are wrong - though what they experience is different from what I experience.

    I love watching Patrick Chan and I find him to be musical and detailed and subtle. I also appreciate that he is putting a great deal of effort into working with dancers and other choreographers to expand his abilities as a performer and skater and perhaps it will lead to some of the many who don't enjoy his skating to like it more. Perhaps it won't. In any case - I don't think for a moment I am confusing lack of expression with subtlety.

    I could go on - and probably will in some other post about different perceptions I have encountered with dance, theatre film and a great deal of other skating.

  4. #104

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    Ziggy, to each his/her own. Cheers.

  5. #105
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    Any performance has two ways to reach the audience.
    Drawing the audience in or reaching out to the audience.

    IMO in Patrick's better performances ( 4cc 2009, Canadian Nats 2011, Canadian Nats 2012, Worlds 2011) he draws you into his programs.
    Reaching out is what entertainers do but artists draw you in.

    The Chan versus Taka debates are unfair as you are comparing a 21 year old Chan with a 26 year old Taka. 5 extra years of skating, studying movement expression etc are bound to develop a recognizable style. Patrick is in the development stage of his own style. That is why he has made a monumental move this year working with different choreographers exploring different styles and nuances in music.
    What is amazing though is Patrick's sophistication as a skater at the age of 21.

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdee View Post
    Any performance has two ways to reach the audience.
    Drawing the audience in or reaching out to the audience.
    ...
    Reaching out is what entertainers do but artists draw you in.
    Actually, I'd argue that artists can do both and that this sort of flexibility and versatility is part of what makes them artists.

    The Chan versus Taka debates are unfair as you are comparing a 21 year old Chan with a 26 year old Taka. 5 extra years of skating, studying movement expression etc are bound to develop a recognizable style. Patrick is in the development stage of his own style. That is why he has made a monumental move this year working with different choreographers exploring different styles and nuances in music.
    You can also compare where Chan is now compared to where Takahashi was at the same age, with the caveat that the judging was a bit different back then. I'm not that big of a fan of Dai's, and I absolutely agree that he's developed a fair bit in the years since - but I still think the comparison would be favorable to him. In terms of technical ability and progress with that aspect, that's a different discussion.
    Last edited by Zemgirl; 09-30-2012 at 02:12 PM.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Kozuka has good basics, good timing but zero style and looks like he couldn't care less when he is skating. Which is a real shame because it's a total waste of his abilities. And he does get hammered on the PCS as well.
    I usually respect your comments on figure skating a lot but this is just .

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Actually, I'd argue that artists can do both and that this sort of flexibility and versatility is part of what makes them artists.
    ITA.

  9. #109
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    It is a good progress for him that he finally stopped using the same programs this as he used in the previous season. That was really limiting his eagerness for showing different styles of his performances. I hear it was because of a financial problem but there's no way that a world champion can't skate to new programs each season. I was really having enough of seeing him skate to the same music for 2 seasons, even after becoming a world champion. No problem with that as long as that program suits him really well and we enjoy watching it, but unfortunately, he is not a skater for me to remember by the music that he skates to.

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by tkaug View Post
    I hear it was because of a financial problem but there's no way that a world champion can't skate to new programs each season. I was really having enough of seeing him skate to the same music for 2 seasons, even after becoming a world champion. No problem with that as long as that program suits him really well and we enjoy watching it, but unfortunately, he is not a skater for me to remember by the music that he skates to.
    I don't think it was for financial reasons. I think it was because his programs are so difficult and complex that a) it is hard to master two new programs in a season and b) he wants to give the programs more time to evolve. Most likely a) was more important than b).

    I was okay with the long programs he kept but did get weary of Take Five in its second season.

    I wonder if he is going to do another two programs for the Olympic season? Or is 'Elegy' going to be a keeper - one you want to see two seasons running?

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    I don't think it was for financial reasons. I think it was because his programs are so difficult and complex that a) it is hard to master two new programs in a season and b) he wants to give the programs more time to evolve. Most likely a) was more important than b).
    As you say, I've also heard that was because it was difficult for him to change both programs, but I just don't understand. Many other skaters do that and why can't he? What is the point that he skates to the same music again that made him a world champion? This is nothing challenging to do even if he puts more difficult technical contents. If he wants to put more difficult technical contents, he can do it for a new program.

  12. #112

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    Chan's programs are much more complicated than many other skaters and each season he has been adding jump arsenault as well. In addition - he is not the only skater to do this - and definitely not the only World Champion. Didn't Viktor Petrenko use one program 3 years in a row? And that was way before all the difficult transitions and levels of COP.
    Personally I am grateful that Chan kept some of his programs for 2 years to have had the chance to see what they became after the mileage he had on them - but to each their own for sure.

  13. #113
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    Accordion I agree about POTO as this changed radically in year 2 but I still think that Take 5 got a bit stale ... even for Patrick.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    That's not oversimplifying the way marks are awarded, since most of the PCS are anchored to the SS mark and not that many at the senior level at any rank receive other PCS with a variance of more than a point of that mark or 1.25-1.5 from highest to lowest. If SS are tied to jump content, then PCS are even further in the direction of rewarding the technical.

    Don't you just love a good, narrow corridor?
    Totally hear you.

    I was talking to a lower level (not quite nationals) US judge a few years ago at a comp and they tested switching the PCS ordering around...so SS is not the first mark given. Not sure how scientific the study was done but they concluded the marks came out way different on PCS side.

    This is a problem of any judging system past or present because judges can lose their credentials if they consistently vary to the average or median mark. So, it causes a dynamic where judges are scoring "what they think everyone else will give that skater". THAT's the big issue.

  15. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by tkaug View Post
    As you say, I've also heard that was because it was difficult for him to change both programs, but I just don't understand. Many other skaters do that and why can't he? What is the point that he skates to the same music again that made him a world champion? This is nothing challenging to do even if he puts more difficult technical contents. If he wants to put more difficult technical contents, he can do it for a new program.
    It's always challenging to skate a program well, especially when the technical content is difficult - and 3 quads in two programs is difficult.

    Patrick did really well when he introduced the quad to his arsenal - there are many skaters who introduce it, never master it, and lose it. Or, their artistry suffers because of the focus on the quad. That shows just how difficult it is to introduce the quad to competition. 3A is the same for those who are new to the jump.

    And these skaters aren't doing level 4 footwork.

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