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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    Though I really cannot imagine Patrick skating to a Michael Jackson! But there are some skaters who may pull this off ... like Daisuke, Florent and even Weir.
    Different people have different style. True, Chan may not look well skating to MJ's music because he's more classical and subtle instead of "flashy". I don't see Dai or Jourbert look well for classical either. It's just different style. For some to say that because Chan's not "flashy" enough, he is lack of style is crazy.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    It's a competition, not Stars on Ice.
    It's a)so not an elements+skating skills competition. There are PCS that cover movement, choreography, musical interpretation, and engagement (however stupidly it's worded.)

    It's not as if Chan's main competition is performing 2A, 3T, 3S, and L1 spins.

    It is possible to appreciate what Chan, and Abbott and Takahashi et al bring to skating.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    While I am ready to admit to Chan's inferiority to other skaters in terms of how he expresses the music, I wouldn't trade his incredibly effortless skating/edging and fluid movement over the ice for anything of what other men have to offer to the sport even though. I'm well aware that Chan's brilliant skating qualities will probably never get the same recognition from fs fans as the drama or theatrics other men are so able to display in their performances on the ice.
    Those fans seem to confuse with competition skating and exhibition/show skating.

    I'd just like Chan to learn to stay focused all throughout his programs, I mean he lands two gorgeous quadruple jumps, a solid 3A or a most amazing second 3Lz right in the middle of the rink with one of the most difficult entries into the jump one can think of but he falls on a stupid double A. Don't you just want to strangle him with your bare hands?
    All these qualities are NOT enough...cause he didn't make some sad faces, or fling his arms in the air.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    It's a)so not an elements+skating skills competition. There are PCS that cover movement, choreography, musical interpretation, and engagement (however stupidly it's worded.)

    It's not as if Chan's main competition is performing 2A, 3T, 3S, and L1 spins.

    It is possible to appreciate what Chan, and Abbott and Takahashi et al bring to skating.
    Yes, and Chan has all of those elements as well. It's just some like to think that although he's technically sounded....all of his other elements are not up there to the like of Abbott or Dai.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    I disagree completely. Chan has so many small elements that other skaters don't have. I'm not an expert, but Tracey Wilson sometimes point out the very simple stuff that he has in his skates that separate him for others.
    In terms of skating, yes. I was talking about upper body movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    Very distinct styles are subjective. Some may find someone like Weir's style is distinctive...but after watching year after year, it's same old same old. Amodio is the same, always dramatic. Dai use the same type of music ALL THE TIME. Jourber's techno forever.... I find Chan has more variety than these skaters.
    Takahashi has used a wide variety of music in his programs. And they were very different. I mean he managed to portray both a tango with very sharp movement and a goofy, playful character in the same season. Last season one of his programs was a bit contemporary, the other was jazz. I could go on.

    And yes what you said is exactly my point. Those skaters' programs are somewhat similar because they have a specific style that they feel comfortable with.

    With Chan, I don't really see any style there. He moves to the music but he doesn't seem to really feel it or engage with it in the same way. He remains a little distant.

    It's exceptional skating and his programs tick the boxes for the most part but I just wish his programs had more character and that he was more expressive.

    Also, you really need to chill out.

  6. #86
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    Engaged, Patrick was in the dance, all the time

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    In terms of skating, yes. I was talking about upper body movement.



    Takahashi has used a wide variety of music in his programs. And they were very different. I mean he managed to portray both a tango with very sharp movement and a goofy, playful character in the same season. Last season one of his programs was a bit contemporary, the other was jazz. I could go on.

    And yes what you said is exactly my point. Those skaters' programs are somewhat similar because they have a specific style that they feel comfortable with.

    With Chan, I don't really see any style there. He moves to the music but he doesn't seem to really feel it or engage with it in the same way. He remains a little distant.

    It's exceptional skating and his programs tick the boxes for the most part but I just wish his programs had more character and that he was more expressive.

    Also, you really need to chill out.
    He, Patrick, when I saw him in his off season Asian tour, in person, was engaged alright. The dances, in T shirt and shimmering showwear, were all so advanced, smooth, that they left the local spectators, in awe.

    His requirement for proper pre-show preparation is very strict, fully exercised aerobic workouts on jogging machine before the shows, etc. guaranteed a flexible, fluid performance all the time.

    In comparison, I also watch Buttle, Browning, Plushenko and others in later show, and they appear more showy, but without the fluidity and smootness of Chan.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Takahashi has used a wide variety of music in his programs. And they were very different. I mean he managed to portray both a tango with very sharp movement and a goofy, playful character in the same season. Last season one of his programs was a bit contemporary, the other was jazz. I could go on.
    There are other skaters who can do that besides Takahashi.

    With Chan, I don't really see any style there. He moves to the music but he doesn't seem to really feel it or engage with it in the same way. He remains a little distant.
    To each his/her own. Some of us prefer the dramatic and expressive and some prefer the understated. Give me Patrick and Kozuka any time.

    Also, you really need to chill out.
    We all need to chill out before it gets too hot in here. (Anyway, you are bad Ziggy. You threw THE stone in the hornet's nest. Newton's third law: for every action there's an equal opposite reaction.)

  8. #88
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    Everyone who watches him doesnt GET Patrick but I can tell you that every skater gets Patrick and those who snipe at him are just jealous.

    Also watching Patrick skating in person is a thing of beauty! A lot is lost on You tube or TV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdee View Post
    Everyone who watches him doesnt GET Patrick but I can tell you that every skater gets Patrick and those who snipe at him are just jealous.
    If I had a dollar for every time someone online suggested that criticism must be due to jealousy, I could actually afford to go to the Olympics!

    For me, I'm glad that Chan's finally left Nichol; she's been doing better work for Kostner than she has for him. But I am once again underwhelmed by his music choices. The closest thing to a risky choice I've seen in his career was Take Five. As Ziggy stated, a lot of other skaters work within a certain range because they found a style that works for them - but with Chan, I'm not seeing a personal style, so more variety would be nice. Well, to each their own.

    Look, it's fine to like Chan's skating, and it's okay not to like it. Both are valid opinions. But just because you enjoy his skating and performances doesn't mean that everyone must.

  10. #90

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    ^^^ No one is forcing you to. Emdee speaks in awe of Patrick's skating just as some of us are but we never say you should appreciate the skaters we like. Artistry is harder to measure than technical skills. A beautiful painting to one may be unattractive to another. To each his/her own...
    Hope you can go to the Olympics .. I wish that too.

  11. #91
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    Zemgirl
    I will send you the dollar for your Olympic fund! If you make a request on you tube with a suitable sob story you could soon end up with hundreds of thousands and indeed go to the Olys.

    When I spoke of jealousy it did not refer to fans of other skaters but to the skaters themselves. There have been some who made snide remarks about Patrick but most are in awe of his skating skills. Its been said frequently that he is a skater's skater.


    I wish Patrick only the very best of everything on his road to Sochi!

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdee View Post
    Zemgirl
    I will send you the dollar for your Olympic fund! If you make a request on you tube with a suitable sob story you could soon end up with hundreds of thousands and indeed go to the Olys.

    When I spoke of jealousy it did not refer to fans of other skaters but to the skaters themselves. There have been some who made snide remarks about Patrick but most are in awe of his skating skills. Its been said frequently that he is a skater's skater.
    I will hold you to that if I ever begin a fundraising effort

    As for the jealousy issue - yes, I know what you meant. But I don't think it's true regarding Patrick Chan's peers, either. Just like skating fans, different skaters can also prefer different styles of skating. It doesn't mean that they are jealous of Chan (or anyone else), just that his skating may not be their cup of tea. Accusations of jealousy are something one sees a lot of in online debates - for instance, apparently many writers and readers are jealous of E. L. James - and I don't think it contributes to most discussions; it's kind of a fall back when people don't have a more compelling argument.

    BTW, I will concede that Chan is much, much better at what he does than E. L. James is at what she does.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    BTW, I will concede that Chan is much, much better at what he does than E. L. James is at what she does.
    I have this feeling though there's far more people around the world getting excited about E.L. James' writing than people enjoying Chan's skating and if my assumption is correct, I can only conclude E.L. is much more skilled at what she does than Chan is in his line of work.

  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Takahashi has used a wide variety of music in his programs. And they were very different. I mean he managed to portray both a tango with very sharp movement and a goofy, playful character in the same season. Last season one of his programs was a bit contemporary, the other was jazz. I could go on.
    Taka is amazingly versatile. I'd give him the edge over Chan in terms of musicality and also say he's more of a natural-born entertainer. But Chan has other qualities that more than compensate for this.


    And yes what you said is exactly my point. Those skaters' programs are somewhat similar because they have a specific style that they feel comfortable with.

    With Chan, I don't really see any style there. He moves to the music but he doesn't seem to really feel it or engage with it in the same way. He remains a little distant.

    It's exceptional skating and his programs tick the boxes for the most part but I just wish his programs had more character and that he was more expressive.
    IMO his exceptional skating functions as a source of his expression. It enables him to construct moves and flourishes that highlight or punctuate the music. This wouldn't be possible without the skating skills. A skater can be wonderfully musical but not have technical ability to fully express that musicality. Patrick's musicality may not be his key strength, but it is not accurate at all to say he is woefully lacking in musicality. To give an analogy, a brilliant pianist may play a piece that she/he doesn't fully connect with, but the execution can still be outstanding. When the pianist does connect with the music, the piece achieves the level of a masterpiece.

    What he hasn't had is a signature program, and to be fair, signature programs are rare for most skaters. That is what makes them 'signature'. I hope the Elegie will be the one that 'sings' for Patrick in terms of emotion and connection. His masterpiece, or hopefully his first masterpiece.
    Last edited by Japanfan; 09-18-2012 at 09:05 AM.

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    What he hasn't had is a signature program, and to be fair, signature programs are rare for most skaters. That is what makes them 'signature'.
    I hope the Elegie will be the one that 'sings' for Patrick in terms of emotion and connection. His masterpiece, or hopefully his first masterpiece.
    The "Elegie" EX achieved that, for me.
    I hope the "Elegie" SP will, also.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock2 View Post
    ...and lots of comments about how Patrick is a great technician -- even on the PCS side and doesn't seem to have flashy or emotional qualities.
    I would debate that but am happy to let it go. What I will say is that's what CoP values more now...the technical side of artistry.

    This is first and foremost a sport. TES and PCS reward the physical challenges of execution. I tell people who are watching and are new to the sport "when you see something you think is good artistically ask yourself if it's physically challenging to do. If it's not, then it isn't rewarded much in the 'artistic' mark"

    Way over-simplifying but that's how eligible skating is rewarded. You can bemoan the lack of emotional impact Patrick makes on you but while it does matter a tich, it doesn't matter enough to drive a different result in the standings. If you want to be emotionally impacted, go watch show skating. If you want to appreciate technical brilliance in every aspect of skating down to the slightest nuance, follow eligible skating.

    Net net it's totally cool if Patrick doesn't do much for you...but trying to connect your feelings to your judgement of where skaters should be placing will forever be a losing battle.
    Love this, you are so right.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock2 View Post

    This is first and foremost a sport. TES and PCS reward the physical challenges of execution. I tell people who are watching and are new to the sport "when you see something you think is good artistically ask yourself if it's physically challenging to do. If it's not, then it isn't rewarded much in the 'artistic' mark"
    It's true that this is the way PCS are rewarded, but there's nothing in the criteria that should reward Chan's IN and CH more than Janet Lynn's "Tales of the Vienna Woods" or Kurt Browning's jumpless "Nyah."

    Quote Originally Posted by Rock2 View Post
    Way over-simplifying but that's how eligible skating is rewarded.
    That's not oversimplifying the way marks are awarded, since most of the PCS are anchored to the SS mark and not that many at the senior level at any rank receive other PCS with a variance of more than a point of that mark or 1.25-1.5 from highest to lowest. If SS are tied to jump content, then PCS are even further in the direction of rewarding the technical.

    Don't you just love a good, narrow corridor?
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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Takahashi has used a wide variety of music in his programs. And they were very different. I mean he managed to portray both a tango with very sharp movement and a goofy, playful character in the same season. Last season one of his programs was a bit contemporary, the other was jazz. I could go on.

    And yes what you said is exactly my point. Those skaters' programs are somewhat similar because they have a specific style that they feel comfortable with.

    With Chan, I don't really see any style there. He moves to the music but he doesn't seem to really feel it or engage with it in the same way. He remains a little distant.

    It's exceptional skating and his programs tick the boxes for the most part but I just wish his programs had more character and that he was more expressive.

    Also, you really need to chill out.
    Chan also had different style of music, the jazzy Take 5 and the more classical Aranjez. You don't see it that doesn't mean it's not. It's just different taste. But to say that he doesn't have it is ridiculous.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Look, it's fine to like Chan's skating, and it's okay not to like it. Both are valid opinions. But just because you enjoy his skating and performances doesn't mean that everyone must.
    I guess it can be said about you or others don't like Chan's skate. Just because you don't see it or don't enjoy his style, doesn't mean he doesn't have a style. It's just different skater for different people.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    It's true that this is the way PCS are rewarded, but there's nothing in the criteria that should reward Chan's IN and CH more than Janet Lynn's "Tales of the Vienna Woods" or Kurt Browning's jumpless "Nyah."
    They never competed at the same time, so not sure how you can compare their scores? Do you compare Dai's score and the other two as well?

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