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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    What does that mean?
    When you look at Takahashi, his body movement is incredibly detailed, he has lot of little choreographic touches and he is utilising his whole body throughout his programs, moving it very fluidly, and just he oozes expression. His movement is very soft and cat-like.

    Chan does technically skate to the music but I find him missing the above qualities. Well maybe not missing but he's not on Dai's level.

    Also, there are some skaters who have very distinct styles or who always show something strong conceptually, that stands out. Chan "just" shows very good craftsmanship.

    He is probably the most skilled male skater to have ever competed, I just wish his programs were more daring and original. I largely blame Lori Nichol - the worst peddler of toilet break "choreography" - for this state of affairs and I have hopes of his programs being much more interesting this season since he finally decided to work with somebody else. Shame it's Wilson and Buttle though and not somebody like Miyamoto or Dickson or Camerlengo. :/

    Quote Originally Posted by tkaug View Post
    I do not think many people don't find him moving, but it is a fact that he's overscored in PCS. The audience's booing when his scores were announced in the Worlds 2012 proves it all. Also many commentators from many countries said he didn't deserve to win.
    As I've written above, Chan's style just isn't as flashy as Takahashi's or Abbott's - to give two examples - but he does tick most of the PCS boxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by tkaug View Post
    It's just WRONG that he got the highest mark, 9.0's in PE and IN with a fall like that and a time violation because of being late to the music.
    Those are two very brief moments. They don't cancel out everything that he showed for the vast majority of his performance.

  2. #62
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    Love you, Ziggy.

  3. #63
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    I agree there were moments in Chan's programs when he wasn't feeling nor responding to the nuances of the music, particularly jazz. That's where Takahashi shines--he IS jazz.

    However, I see Chan's artistic skills blossoming. He is extremely elegant and fluid in the Elegie, very spare, minimalistc choreo involving the arms but I like that. Most of the work is done by the blades, which are magical. It suits the program--the result is so elegant. I hope he develops in that direction.
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  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Love you, Ziggy.
    I think I may love you too, Ziggy.... like Marco.
    Fair enough, I know what you mean by Daisuke's cat like movement. Patrick did admit that 'he doesn't dance' (count ballet out) .. and I think his 'dance' means dancing in nightclubs/discos?? Personally, I see him as a very talented athlete first and dancer second.
    Patrick needs to skate to the genre he is most comfortable with. We will see in this season whether the change in choreographers and coaches will bring about changes in his programs. Though I really cannot imagine Patrick skating to a Michael Jackson! But there are some skaters who may pull this off ... like Daisuke, Florent and even Weir.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Chan's timing is generally very good. You could say that he lacks style somewhat. He does moves to the music but it all looks a little robotic.
    I think he is still developing his artistic side and with watching his exhibition program and Buttle's ability to tap into bringing out his passion and inner artist Patrick will be major force this season on the artistic side.. he is one of the smartest skaters i Know and approaches his craft very methodically, doing what is necessary to reach the next step. My one concern is if he focuses too much on the artistic side he will lose the equilibrium with his technical side - which does require a very methodical approach.. Which is what has happened with some other skaters who almost get 'lost' in their program - that they 'become' their program which is incredible for us to watch.. but can also lead to technical difficulties.. IMHO

    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    I think that no longer applies, especially after having seen his Elegie exhibition. He was smooth like butter and maintained a beautiful impression of flow both with his blades and body. Again, I just wish that program were an LP. So gorgeous. Goosebumps.
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  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by tkaug View Post
    I do not think many people don't find him moving, but it is a fact that he's overscored in PCS. The audience's booing when his scores were announced in the Worlds 2012 proves it all. Also many commentators from many countries said he didn't deserve to win.

    It's just WRONG that he got the highest mark, 9.0's in PE and IN with a fall like that and a time violation because of being late to the music.
    And so once again we go down the path that the audience -- both those who sit in the stands and those announcing - know how to better judge the program of a skater than the actual judges. Gaaaaah, how many more times will someone trying to use that criteria as an excuse for why THEIR favourite didn't win.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    And so once again we go down the path that the audience -- both those who sit in the stands and those announcing - know how to better judge the program of a skater than the actual judges. Gaaaaah, how many more times will someone trying to use that criteria as an excuse for why THEIR favourite didn't win.
    ...and lots of comments about how Patrick is a great technician -- even on the PCS side and doesn't seem to have flashy or emotional qualities.
    I would debate that but am happy to let it go. What I will say is that's what CoP values more now...the technical side of artistry.

    This is first and foremost a sport. TES and PCS reward the physical challenges of execution. I tell people who are watching and are new to the sport "when you see something you think is good artistically ask yourself if it's physically challenging to do. If it's not, then it isn't rewarded much in the 'artistic' mark"

    Way over-simplifying but that's how eligible skating is rewarded. You can bemoan the lack of emotional impact Patrick makes on you but while it does matter a tich, it doesn't matter enough to drive a different result in the standings. If you want to be emotionally impacted, go watch show skating. If you want to appreciate technical brilliance in every aspect of skating down to the slightest nuance, follow eligible skating.

    Net net it's totally cool if Patrick doesn't do much for you...but trying to connect your feelings to your judgement of where skaters should be placing will forever be a losing battle.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Chan does technically skate to the music but I find him missing the above qualities. Well maybe not missing but he's not on Dai's level.

    Also, there are some skaters who have very distinct styles or who always show something strong conceptually, that stands out. Chan "just" shows very good craftsmanship.

    He is probably the most skilled male skater to have ever competed, I just wish his programs were more daring and original. I largely blame Lori Nichol - the worst peddler of toilet break "choreography" - for this state of affairs and I have hopes of his programs being much more interesting this season since he finally decided to work with somebody else. Shame it's Wilson and Buttle though and not somebody like Miyamoto or Dickson or Camerlengo. :/

    Chan does technically skate to the music but I find him missing the above qualities. Well maybe not missing but he's not on Dai's level.

    Also, there are some skaters who have very distinct styles or who always show something strong conceptually, that stands out. Chan "just" shows very good craftsmanship.
    Have a few sins to confess. I don't usually have a problem with Nichol's choreographies, I always found them clever and stylish and I think Lori has good taste in music. I am not familiar with Miyamoto's work, can't name any masterpiece program he may have created. I often had trouble in the past to understand Dickson's choreographic ideas. Haven't formed an opinion yet of Jeffrey Buttle as a choreographer for competition. No OTT Camerlengo style for Chan please. I have mixed feelings for David Wilson, I thought some of his programs were brilliant while others never appealed to me.

    While I am ready to admit to Chan's inferiority to other skaters in terms of how he expresses the music, I wouldn't trade his incredibly effortless skating/edging and fluid movement over the ice for anything of what other men have to offer to the sport even though I'm well aware that Chan's brilliant skating qualities will probably never get the same recognition from fs fans as the drama or theatrics other men are so able to display in their performances on the ice.

    I'd just like Chan to learn to stay focused all throughout his programs, I mean he lands two gorgeous quadruple jumps, a solid 3A or a most amazing second 3Lz right in the middle of the rink with one of the most difficult entries into the jump one can think of but he falls on a stupid double A. Don't you just want to strangle him with your bare hands?

    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    Gaaaaah, how many more times will someone trying to use that criteria as an excuse for why THEIR favourite didn't win.
    Ad nauseum, I presume.

  9. #69

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    There are many different types/definitions of "artistry".
    I respect all - and enjoy - most examples of them.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    I agree there were moments in Chan's programs when he wasn't feeling nor responding to the nuances of the music, particularly jazz. That's where Takahashi shines--he IS jazz.

    However, I see Chan's artistic skills blossoming. He is extremely elegant and fluid in the Elegie, very spare, minimalistc choreo involving the arms but I like that. Most of the work is done by the blades, which are magical. It suits the program--the result is so elegant. I hope he develops in that direction.
    I agree and i think it has a lot to do with his age, we often forget that Patrick is only 21...

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarie View Post
    He skates "big", and also his ice coverage is 2nd to none........a few strokes and he's at the other end of the rink......amazing
    We really noticed this at the GPF this year. He put on a little bit more muscle this fall and his power is now quite impressive. 2 pushes (yep, we counted ) to get from one end of the rink to the other. Amazing for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by frisette70 View Post
    I agree and i think it has a lot to do with his age, we often forget that Patrick is only 21...
    Exactly! Rome wasn't built in a day people. Kurt Browning at 21 was nothing more than a jumping bean. The programs Lori Nichol choreographs are not artistic masterpieces, but they are very COP savvy and go a long way in developing young skaters' technical skills. But Patrick has outgrown her choreo now, and it's time for him to work with other choreographers who will help develop his artistic skills. Elegie is the first program of his to really knock my socks off. I'm looking forward to seeing the competitive version.
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  12. #72
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    Rock2 - very good point.

    It's one thing to talk about what you like and don't like but judging needs to be based on qualities that can be reasonably defined. "Soul" and "artistry" definitely aren't those.

    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    I am not familiar with Miyamoto's work, can't name any masterpiece program he may have created.
    Daisuke Takahashi - The Eye (2010 Olympic SP)

    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    I'd just like Chan to learn to stay focused all throughout his programs, I mean he lands two gorgeous quadruple jumps, a solid 3A or a most amazing second 3Lz right in the middle of the rink with one of the most difficult entries into the jump one can think of but he falls on a stupid double A. Don't you just want to strangle him with your bare hands?
    This x infinity. Especially because then people focus on the mistakes and seem to forget everything that happened before them.

  13. #73
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    Modern Dance Movements Helped Chan To Jump Better

    According to his mother, whom I had conversation with, modern dance movements from Johnson, who was a graduate of Julliard School,and wrote books on dance Biomechanics?, helped Patrick to improve on traditonal Jump technics, and the Krall system of Jump Teacher, audio visual on screen, was over exaggerated. The muscles used in modern dance movements, are used and applied in skating jumps and movements, and that helped Patrick a lot.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by trevor View Post
    According to his mother, whom I had conversation with, modern dance movements from Johnson, who was a graduate of Julliard School,and wrote books on dance Biomechanics?, helped Patrick to improve on traditonal Jump technics, and the Krall system of Jump Teacher, audio visual on screen, was over exaggerated. The muscles used in modern dance movements, are used and applied in skating jumps and movements, and that helped Patrick a lot.
    It would be great if Johnson became more involved in skating. Perhaps developing an off-ice training program for skaters?

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    Quote Originally Posted by frisette70 View Post
    I agree and i think it has a lot to do with his age, we often forget that Patrick is only 21...
    Isn't he a year younger than Jeremy Ten and a year older than Liam Firus? Take a look at what they did in Salt Lake this weekend and it kinda puts things in perspective.
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Daisuke Takahashi - The Eye (2010 Olympic SP).
    I'm such a disgrace, I didn't know Miyamoto choreographed that SP for Takahashi. I'm not a fan of busy/flashy costumes or crazy hairstyles in athletes but that program was terrific by all means, a real joy to watch.

    Thanks, Ziggy.

    Quote Originally Posted by trevor View Post
    According to his mother, whom I had conversation with, modern dance movements from Johnson, who was a graduate of Julliard School,and wrote books on dance Biomechanics?, helped Patrick to improve on traditonal Jump technics, and the Krall system of Jump Teacher, audio visual on screen, was over exaggerated. The muscles used in modern dance movements, are used and applied in skating jumps and movements, and that helped Patrick a lot.
    I'm not arguing Johnson wouldn't have helped Patrick improve his technique on the jumps but I'd still feel more relaxed if I knew he had a technical coach the old-school way. Maybe I'm wrong to worry though.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    I'm not arguing Johnson wouldn't have helped Patrick improve his technique on the jumps but I'd still feel more relaxed if I knew he had a technical coach the old-school way. Maybe I'm wrong to worry though.
    Yes, definitely this.

    Whilst it's very interesting to hear about Johnson's research into biomechanics and whilst that knowledge will surely help Chan, jumps and skating in general also - and even more so - relies on edges. You need to have a coach who can give you that input as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tkaug View Post
    I've been moved by performances of Takahashi, Abbott, Hanyu, and many other men, but never by Chan's. I've never liked his performances so I want to watch them again and again. When it comes to his programs, it's always about techniches or scoring and I don't see much about the relationship to the music in his programs. In fact, I haven't heard so much about the music itself from him that he chooses to skate to. Admitting he deserves the best marks on SS and TR, but I just don't understand that he gets the best marks on CH and IN.
    Very subjective. I love all Chan's programs...all of the movements, little movements...it's more than just technical stuff. And everyone's skating is about scoring. It's a competition, not Stars on Ice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tkaug View Post
    I do not think many people don't find him moving, but it is a fact that he's overscored in PCS. The audience's booing when his scores were announced in the Worlds 2012 proves it all. Also many commentators from many countries said he didn't deserve to win.

    It's just WRONG that he got the highest mark, 9.0's in PE and IN with a fall like that and a time violation because of being late to the music.
    He got penalties for all his mistakes. Other skaters didn't skate well either. Overall, his program was still the hardest among all other competitors.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    When you look at Takahashi, his body movement is incredibly detailed, he has lot of little choreographic touches and he is utilising his whole body throughout his programs, moving it very fluidly, and just he oozes expression. His movement is very soft and cat-like.

    Chan does technically skate to the music but I find him missing the above qualities. Well maybe not missing but he's not on Dai's level.
    I disagree completely. Chan has so many small elements that other skaters don't have. I'm not an expert, but Tracey Wilson sometimes point out the very simple stuff that he has in his skates that separate him for others.

    I do not find Dai's busy hand movements are anything other than busy hand movements. I sometimes find his hands move more than his feet. And this is about skating, not sign language competition.

    Also, there are some skaters who have very distinct styles or who always show something strong conceptually, that stands out. Chan "just" shows very good craftsmanship.
    He is probably the most skilled male skater to have ever competed, I just wish his programs were more daring and original.
    Very distinct styles are subjective. Some may find someone like Weir's style is distinctive...but after watching year after year, it's same old same old. Amodio is the same, always dramatic. Dai use the same type of music ALL THE TIME. Jourber's techno forever.... I find Chan has more variety than these skaters.

    As I've written above, Chan's style just isn't as flashy as Takahashi's or Abbott's - to give two examples - but he does tick most of the PCS boxes.
    Flashy means nothing other than just flashy. Chan's more subtle...but that doesn't mean his has no style nor distinctive.

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