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  1. #861
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    Well the new rules for the season only allow the 8 rev feature to be counted once - the first time it is attempted - so if she wants to use it for her layback, she can't use it for her deathdrop. And the jump within the spin feature doesn't work well for her deathdrop so until she could work something out, level 3 is what she has to settle for the deathdrop if she wants to keep up the quality. The level on the combination spin depends too much on whether she is running out of time, in both the short and the free. If not, she would do an outside camel as her 4th feature.

  2. #862
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    I just like seeing Ashley so confident! The spins have to be the next thing they work on...that and getting the 2a-3t consistent (it looks like she landed a 2a-2t today?). And yes, a triple-triple. But in the order I mentioned.

    Does Nicks have anyone to recommend to his skaters for spins? Hill was so good at getting her spins under control.

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    Post-FS press conference excerpts from the TEB forum in Kiss and Cry:
    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    Ashley, you won your 2nd GP event how do you feel winning the 2nd GP and going to GPF
    Today was a huge accomplishment - I went out there I didn't really feel at my best and to accomplish that program when not 100% was showing mentally that I don't have to be on top of my game to skate well and I was really happy.
    ...
    To Wagner: you seemed a bit ill
    Nothing much just a slight cold, so I wasn't felling 100%, so I wasn't terribly sick, just not my best
    Are you contagious?
    No!
    ...
    To Wagner: how will you skate in GPF? What is your goal?
    Wagner: It's to get my spin levels up and depending on how is it in practice I'd like to put the 3/3 for the first time this season - if it's not consistent it will not be in the program. All and all I am satisfied with where I am this season.
    Very impressive 6-triple FS performances by both Ashley and Christina in Paris today - kudos to them!

    ETA: Unfortunately for Christina, she is behind Elizaveta Tuktamysheva on the 22-point (13+9) tiebreaker in the GP Final qualification standings with NHK Trophy to go - her 2 GP competition total score is 338.96 to Liza's 347.62.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 11-17-2012 at 08:28 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isnít every four years, itís every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  4. #864
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    So basically after TEB it looks like US Nats is Ashley's to lose and she might not need a 3-3 or 2a-3t to win (or if she does go for them, can maybe afford some other mistakes). Also Gao's score here with a clean skate combined with last week's results make me think Gold is likely to be the 2nd girl on the World team, as for whatever reason, and whether deserved or not, she seems to have a slight PCS edge over Gao and Zawadzki, which, combined with her more ambitious content, explain why she was able to score higher than those two with more mistakes. I mean, Zawadzki got 106 for a FS with really only two errors skating in the final flight, and Gao with a clean skate in the second warmup got 112, the same as Gracie in Russia with all those mistakes she made. I do think which group you skate in makes a difference (to me, Gao's skate here was basically as good as it was at SA, where it scored 5 points higher, and Gracie's FS at COR was not all that much better than her one at SC, yet scored 13 points higher when I would have maybe put it at around 5 points higher), but as for now, it does seem that Gracie is heavy edge, especially with her SP content as if she can deliver a good SP and make the final flight at Worlds, that should help her stay afloat in FS scores should she make mistakes compared to Zawadzki or Gao who could, with a SP with mistakes, potentially fall out of even the penultimate group and might only make the penultimate group anyways even with a clean SP. I guess we'll see what happens at Nationals. If Gao and/or Zawadzki somehow manage to make the GPF though, that could help their cases. As for Mirai I'm putting her behind Gao and Zawadzki for now but NHK results (and again, should she somehow make a birth to the GPF) could alter that.

    I think the best Czisny can hope for at this point is an outside shot at the 4CCs team.

  5. #865
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbd1235 View Post
    If you didn't see the program she was just a little bit short on her camel variation in her combo spin. Therefore she didn't get the variation and lost the change of edge since she didn't hold the inside edge portion long enough. That was the two levels on her combo spin lost. On her layback she lost one level due to the first position being short a half rotation from 8. And she seems to have ditched the jump in her flying sit, therefore it can only be level 3. Overall the spins need some polish but her skating heavily reminisced of Kwan...landing jump after jump without a bit of hesitation or doubt.
    It's funny you should bring up Kwan. IDK if it's body type or what, but whatever it is in combo w/ Ashley's current consistency, plus the way she approaches jumps and spins reminds me a lot of the Kween.

    Also, congrats to Gao. It sounds like she delivered another great LP. Any chance of her getting in the GPF??? ETA - I saw upthread that Tuk has her beat on the tiebreak ...

  6. #866

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    Besides Wagner (30) and Korpi (26), the other 4 qualifiers are likely to be Lipnitskaia (24), Tuktamysheva (22) plus Asada (15) and Suzuki (13) at NHK Trophy next week unless, for example, Zawadzki (11) can be 2nd or higher and/or Nagasu (9) can win (or she can score 184.17+ total in winning silver).
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isnít every four years, itís every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  7. #867
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    So basically after TEB it looks like US Nats is Ashley's to lose and she might not need a 3-3 or 2a-3t to win (or if she does go for them, can maybe afford some other mistakes). Also Gao's score here with a clean skate combined with last week's results make me think Gold is likely to be the 2nd girl on the World team, as for whatever reason, and whether deserved or not, she seems to have a slight PCS edge over Gao and Zawadzki, which, combined with her more ambitious content, explain why she was able to score higher than those two with more mistakes. I mean, Zawadzki got 106 for a FS with really only two errors skating in the final flight, and Gao with a clean skate in the second warmup got 112, the same as Gracie in Russia with all those mistakes she made. I do think which group you skate in makes a difference (to me, Gao's skate here was basically as good as it was at SA, where it scored 5 points higher, and Gracie's FS at COR was not all that much better than her one at SC, yet scored 13 points higher when I would have maybe put it at around 5 points higher), but as for now, it does seem that Gracie is heavy edge, especially with her SP content as if she can deliver a good SP and make the final flight at Worlds, that should help her stay afloat in FS scores should she make mistakes compared to Zawadzki or Gao who could, with a SP with mistakes, potentially fall out of even the penultimate group and might only make the penultimate group anyways even with a clean SP. I guess we'll see what happens at Nationals. If Gao and/or Zawadzki somehow manage to make the GPF though, that could help their cases. As for Mirai I'm putting her behind Gao and Zawadzki for now but NHK results (and again, should she somehow make a birth to the GPF) could alter that.

    I think the best Czisny can hope for at this point is an outside shot at the 4CCs team.
    Kudos to Ashley. She skated with such determination and confidence at TEB. I love the way she's pacing herself this season. She's got wonderful programs and the whole package too, not to mention a great coach! They are spot-on with the strategy re jumps and jump-layout. I really don't care about all the over-emphasis on jumps like they are the end-all and be-all in this sport. IMO, it's important to maintain a harmonious balance and that's what Ashley exhibits in spades, along with hard-won maturity and grit. She'll add more technical difficulty when and if she's ready and the timing is right. What Ashley is doing right now technically is stellar and admirable -- proven by her marks. The over-focus on jump difficulty by some fans to me is a result of being jaded by 3/3s and baby ballerinas. Triple/ triples alone do not make great skating.

    Gracie is quite wonderful, but I think she still needs time to grow in artistry. However, I'm sure that because Gracie has more impressive jumps than Christina, the edge will be given to Gracie should both Gracie and Christina perform to their capabilities at Nationals. At this point, if Christina performs as well at Nationals as she did at SA and in the fp at TEB, I prefer her skating over Gracie's, but they are both enjoyable to watch and extremely talented. I am enjoying watching Agnes and Mirai this season too. It's a shame there are only two spots available for 2013 Worlds. Whoever goes to Worlds among the ladies really need to bring back 3 spots for next season's Worlds and Olympics.

  8. #868

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    Congrats to Ashley on winning her second GP gold of the season in Paris!

    2012-13 U.S. Ladies -- Top International Scores

    1. Ashley WAGNER (190.63), Trophee Eric Bompard
    2. Gracie GOLD (175.03), Rostelecom Cup
    3. Christina GAO (174.25), Skate America
    4. Agnes ZAWADZKI (172.95), U.S. Classic
    5. Mirai NAGASU (163.46), Cup of China
    6. Angela WANG (162.65), JGP Zagreb

    7. Hannah MILLER (158.52), JGP Linz
    8. Samantha CESARIO (157.72), JGP Linz
    9. Leah KEISER (156.33), JGP Istanbul
    10. Courtney HICKS (153.77), JGP Lake Placid
    11. Caroline ZHANG (149.87), Skate Canada
    12. Barbie LONG (147.19), JGP Bled

    13. Kiri BAGA (142.22), JGP Lake Placid
    14. Vanessa LAM (140.89), JGP Courchevel
    15. Ashley CAIN (136.51), JGP Courchevel
    16. Rachael FLATT (136.09), Skate America out for rest of season
    17. Nina JIANG (115.48), JGP Istanbul


    Upcoming assignments:
    • NHK Trophy (Mirai NAGASU, Agnes ZAWADZKI)
    • JGP Final (Leah KEISER, Hannah MILLER, Angela WANG)
    • GP Final (Ashley WAGNER)

  9. #869
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipso1 View Post
    Congrats to Ashley on winning her second GP gold of the season in Paris!

    2012-13 U.S. Ladies -- Top International Scores

    1. Ashley WAGNER (190.63), Trophee Eric Bompard
    2. Gracie GOLD (175.03), Rostelecom Cup
    3. Christina GAO (174.25), Skate America
    4. Agnes ZAWADZKI (172.95), U.S. Classic
    5. Mirai NAGASU (163.46), Cup of China
    6. Angela WANG (162.65), JGP Zagreb

    7. Hannah MILLER (158.52), JGP Linz
    8. Samantha CESARIO (157.72), JGP Linz
    9. Leah KEISER (156.33), JGP Istanbul
    10. Courtney HICKS (153.77), JGP Lake Placid
    11. Caroline ZHANG (149.87), Skate Canada
    12. Barbie LONG (147.19), JGP Bled

    13. Kiri BAGA (142.22), JGP Lake Placid
    14. Vanessa LAM (140.89), JGP Courchevel
    15. Ashley CAIN (136.51), JGP Courchevel
    16. Rachael FLATT (136.09), Skate America out for rest of season
    17. Nina JIANG (115.48), JGP Istanbul


    Upcoming assignments:
    • NHK Trophy (Mirai NAGASU, Agnes ZAWADZKI)
    • JGP Final (Leah KEISER, Hannah MILLER, Angela WANG)
    • GP Final (Ashley WAGNER)
    Thanks. The chart is helpful in discerning where American ladies stand.

    The following scores don't count for purposes of your chart, but Vanessa Lam scored 177.73 at her Sectionals competition last week, Samantha scored 163.53, and Ashley Cain scored 161.49. I think at least Vanessa's and Ashley Cain's scores show improvement/progress over their international scores listed above from earlier in the season (although I realize comparing domestic to international scores is apples to oranges).

    I really hope Agnes and Mirai do well at NHK. Especially Mirai! I would like her to realize her potential.

    BTW, isn't Wagner's score the highest international CoP score for a US lady ever? Mirai had around 190 pts. in Vancouver in 2010 and 189 pts. at '11 4CC's, and perhaps Sasha Cohen scored somewhere around that no. at her best in the last decade ...

    The competition at Nats will be quite intense!

  10. #870
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Thanks. The chart is helpful in discerning where American ladies stand.

    The following scores don't count for purposes of your chart, but Vanessa Lam scored 177.73 at her Sectionals competition last week, Samantha scored 163.53, and Ashley Cain scored 161.49. I think at least Vanessa's and Ashley Cain's scores show improvement/progress over their international scores listed above from earlier in the season (although I realize comparing domestic to international scores is apples to oranges).

    I really hope Agnes and Mirai do well at NHK. Especially Mirai! I would like her to realize her potential.

    BTW, isn't Wagner's score the highest international CoP score for a US lady ever? Mirai had around 190 pts. in Vancouver in 2010 and 189 pts. at '11 4CC's, and perhaps Sasha Cohen scored somewhere around that no. at her best in the last decade ...

    The competition at Nats will be quite intense!
    ITA, and thanks for pointing out Ashley Cain's and Vanessa's recent Sectionals scores, because I think those marks likely provide a better picture of where they might place among the top finishers at Nationals. There is probably a greater correlation between Sectionals and Nationals scores than there would be between International and Nationals scores, particularly for Cain and Lam.

    Nationals is generally always exciting, but there is sure to be a bit more buzz and excitement in the ladies event in January, than there has been in recent years.

  11. #871

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    For score buffs...

    ISU Personal Best Total Scores - U.S. Ladies in the current top 50: http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/pbslto.htm
    ...
    6 Sasha COHEN USA MasterCard Skate Canada Int. 2003 01.11.2003 197.60
    7 Ashley WAGNER USA Four Continents Championships 2012 11.02.2012 192.41
    ...
    9 Mirai NAGASU USA XXI Olympic Winter Games 2010 25.02.2010 190.15
    ...
    11 Kimmie MEISSNER USA World Championships 2006 25.03.2006 189.87
    ...
    18 Rachael FLATT USA XXI Olympic Winter Games 2010 25.02.2010 182.49
    19 Alissa CZISNY USA World Championships 2011 30.04.2011 182.25
    ...
    22 Jennifer KIRK USA Smart Ones Skate America 2003 25.10.2003 178.77
    ...
    28 Caroline ZHANG USA ISU Grand Prix Final 2008 15.12.2007 176.48
    ...
    30 Michelle KWAN USA World Championships 2005 19.03.2005 175.20
    31 Gracie GOLD USA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2012 10.11.2012 175.03
    32 Christina GAO USA ISU GP Hilton HHonors Skate America 2012 21.10.2012 174.25
    ...
    36 Agnes ZAWADZKI USA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2012 10.11.2012 166.61
    37 Emily HUGHES USA Four Continents Championships 2007 10.02.2007 166.60
    ...
    43 Katy TAYLOR USA Four Continents Championships 2006 28.01.2006 164.05
    ...
    45 Angela WANG USA ISU JGP Croatia Cup 2012 06.10.2012 162.65 JR
    ...
    50 Yasmin SIRAJ USA ISU JGP J. Curry Memorial 2010 01.10.2010 161.75 JR
    Last edited by Sylvia; 11-17-2012 at 11:46 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isnít every four years, itís every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  12. #872

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post



    BTW, isn't Wagner's score the highest international CoP score for a US lady ever?
    No, but her score is the highest for this year.

  13. #873

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    Jean-Christophe Berlot spoke with Ashley before her free skate at TEB: Bringing the drama: Wagner in a class of her own
    Excerpt:
    "I spent a lot of time studying Michelle Kwan's programs, and the way she would interact with the audience. Michelle was so beloved from the audience. She skated to perform, not only to win. It's certainly a level I would like to reach -- both for the results and the performing success. That would be the best of both worlds."

    "I wish skating had more strong individuals, some champions the audience can latch on to. In the U.S., the skating audience is dwindling now. I'd like to go back to what it was in Michelle Kwan's times. Performance is what people come to watch, beyond technique. Of course, you go for the elements, where you get the points. But the components are also so important."

    "I think that I have turned into a performer now, even though I, of course, need to remain concentrated and focused on my technical elements. I have found the 'happy medium' between being a technical athlete and a performer, I think."

    Showing a strong personality and feeling it inside her does not prevent Wagner from having her own questions, though.

    "The biggest challenge for me now is to experience all the success I have and not let it intimidate me," she offered. "Maintaining that upward spiral of success and yet being able to mentally handle it. That is my biggest challenge."
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isnít every four years, itís every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

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    Quote Originally Posted by victoriaheidi View Post
    Apparently, Ashley is the first US woman to win two GPs in the same season since Sasha Cohen in 2003. USFS posted that on twitter. Yay Ashley!

    Agree about spin levels...she did get better levels in her SP, but she definitely needs to get those up because, even if she has the highest scores, she's still missing points she should logically get.
    Ashley's spins looked strong to me in France. I do not understand the loss of levels on the FSSp and LSp. To me, they seemed like clear level fours. The combination spin at the end was rushed..she didn't hold the forward camel variation long enough so I can see the loss of the level there, The caller at this competition was pretty tough.

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    Samson and Delilah is one of my favorite pieces. There is such raw sexuality and exhibitionism in it. Maybe Ashley doesn't capture that, but the final footwork sequence shows she or her choreographer knows what it is all about. For a couple of years Vladimir Kotin ended his programs with S and D. And he skated with D and A. Very very sexy. I guess since Ashley is a Nicks student she wouldn't go all out, but she's doing almost enough, I just wish she had more UUMPH in that final step sequence. The crowd is applauding, give them more.

    My first skate crush was Vladimir Kotin. Please don't tell me he is a vodka drinking lush. He was so sexy back in the 80s. But I guess so was I...

  16. #876
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    Ashley's spins looked strong to me in France. I do not understand the loss of levels on the FSSp and LSp. To me, they seemed like clear level fours. The combination spin at the end was rushed..she didn't hold the forward camel variation long enough so I can see the loss of the level there, The caller at this competition was pretty tough.
    If there's one remaining weakness, though, it's definitely her spins. Not that she has bad spins--at all--but she could have more consistent spins. She should not wind up in a time crunch and miss levels because she misses half a rotation (obviously, a variety of factors were at play).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    Ashley's spins looked strong to me in France. I do not understand the loss of levels on the FSSp and LSp. To me, they seemed like clear level fours. The combination spin at the end was rushed..she didn't hold the forward camel variation long enough so I can see the loss of the level there, The caller at this competition was pretty tough.
    Someone noted that she already used the (8?) revolution feature in her FSSp and it can only be used once, so she lost a level on the LSp. I don't think she has enough features on her FSSp, as a lot of people who are doing FSSp are doing what she does (death drop, two difficult variations) but with a flying change between the change of positions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LilJen View Post
    Nationals is TWO MONTHS AWAY. Plenty of time to heal some more and get the programs in front of some judges somewhere.
    No. Sorry. Not gonna happen. I would love to see Alissa there, but you've got to be realistic. How many skaters show up only for nationals, after surgery, and do just awesome? It's hard enough when you are healthy. Evan, Johnny, Sasha, Michelle, ALL had problems with this.

    I predicted months ago that she would not be ready for NHK because recovery from this surgery is hellacious. Lipinski claims to have been doing triples within two weeks. She's either superhuman or full of it. For the mere mortals, it's not possible.
    Last edited by leafygreens; 11-18-2012 at 03:14 AM.

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    A lot of it with Alissa is mental, too, moreso than a lot of other skaters. She may have just as hard a time recovering from this surgery physically as she does emotionally. She left the ice on a really disastrous note, and she may be having mental consistency problems as she tries to get back into competition.

    And I don't intend to be a computer psychologist. What I mean is that Alissa isn't known for her mental solidity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by victoriaheidi View Post
    If there's one remaining weakness, though, it's definitely her spins. Not that she has bad spins--at all--but she could have more consistent spins. She should not wind up in a time crunch and miss levels because she misses half a rotation (obviously, a variety of factors were at play).
    If anything, it isn't just the spins. It's the whole final segment. The music is so tight and she always seems to be in such a rush that her circular steps doesn't come close to the boards, her choreographic sequence doesn't cover enough ice, she often has to skip the forward spiral and split jump that follow her Charlotte at the end, and again the rush on the final spin. It's a lot of points on the table.

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