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  1. #21
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    She didn't miss a triple lutz at all at the 2010 Worlds. She messed up the flip in the SP and fell on the salchow in the LP.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by flipforsynchro View Post
    Yuna gave away two WC titles
    How about Mao and Miki actually WINNING those? They did what it took to win.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by flipforsynchro View Post
    ^i think in 2010 and 2011 she could have easily gotten first. In 2007 wasn't she injured and same in 08? And I agree, if she did win 2007-2011 she would be one of the greatest.
    Excuses excuses..........if if if..................

    The only thing that matters is what she did in the competition.

    By your logic, Michelle would have two OGMs- if only (fill in the blanks)

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Excuses excuses..........if if if..................

    The only thing that matters is what she did in the competition.

    By your logic, Michelle would have two OGMs- if only (fill in the blanks)
    I'm just saying she COULD have easily won those two titles, not that she was nice and decided to give them to Mao/Miki. I'm not a Yuna fan, I'm just saying that she gave away two WC titles that she could've easily won.

    I think you might have interpreted what I wrote differently

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    My rankings would be:

    1st: Kim
    2nd: Witt
    3rd: Lipinski

    4th: Schuba
    5th: Fleming
    6th: Hamill
    7th: Yamaguchi
    8th: Arakawa
    9th: Baiul
    10th: Hughes
    11th: Dijkstra
    12th: Poetzsch
    That's more how my list would have looked.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    How about Mao and Miki actually WINNING those? They did what it took to win.
    Miki's "winning" skates in 2011 were probably the worst in 20-30 years. She didnt win so much as survive the others. Yeah she did what it took to win that night, which wasnt much of anything.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Miki's "winning" skates in 2011 were probably the worst in 20-30 years. She didnt win so much as survive the others. Yeah she did what it took to win that night, which wasnt much of anything.
    It wasn't that bad. Although I do think Miki was over-marked, her LP really wasn't horrible. I think once it became clear Mao wasn't going to be a factor at those championships, Miki became the beneficiary of pro-Japan politicking.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by dawnie View Post
    It wasn't that bad. Although I do think Miki was over-marked, her LP really wasn't horrible. I think once it became clear Mao wasn't going to be a factor at those championships, Miki became the beneficiary of pro-Japan politicking.
    There was no pro-Japan politicking. Miki got it done. Yu na (and others) did not.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    How about Mao and Miki actually WINNING those?They did what it took to win.


    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Miki's "winning" skates in 2011 were probably the worst in 20-30 years.
    You're so exaggerated.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Miki's "winning" skates in 2011 were probably the worst in 20-30 years. She didnt win so much as survive the others. Yeah she did what it took to win that night, which wasnt much of anything.
    Worse than Jill Trenary in 1990? Oksana Baiul in 1993? Annette Poesch (sp?) in the 1980s? Yuka sato in 1994?

    Miki did more than any of these ladies (and I say more than Yuka, despite Yuka's sublime basic skating).

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Miki's "winning" skates in 2011 were probably the worst in 20-30 years. She didnt win so much as survive the others. Yeah she did what it took to win that night, which wasnt much of anything.
    The fact that Kim lost two world titles to Ando, a truly mediocre skater, *significantly* diminishes her historical legacy. She could have been five time world champion, and she has only won one. As for Katarina Witt winning the poll, .
    Last edited by a56; 08-21-2012 at 07:42 PM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Worse than Jill Trenary in 1990?
    That was the last one which arguably she could have beaten, and exactly what I had in mind when I said the atleast 20 years before that it would have been something like Poetzch in 1980, so actually more like 21 or 31 years if I was being exact.

    However that isnt even really a fair comparision since this was 1990, not 2011. For 1990 standards (of the human ladies, not the superhuman Ito) Trenary's performance was much stronger than Ando's for 2011 standards.

    Oksana Baiul in 1993?
    Yes way worse than her. Both had 5 triples, Baiul had no triple combination but Ando had no triple flip, and Baiul's artistry is light years superior. Bonaly and Chen from 93 would have both crushed Ando's LP from the 93 Worlds, and both lost to Baiul (even if controversially so) so...

    Yuka sato in 1994?
    Yes WAY worse than Sato. Sato actually had 1 more triple, did both the triple lutz and triple flip, and everything she does between the jumps including the other elements like spins, footwork, spirals is miles better.


    Where would Ando have come at the 2010 Olympics with the same performances? Probably the same spot she finished as it was, 5th place, maybe 4th at a stretch but only since Nagasu was so undermarked.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    That was the last one which arguably she could have beaten, and exactly what I had in mind when I said the atleast 20 years before that it would have been something like Poetzch in 1980, so actually more like 21 or 31 years if I was being exact.

    However that isnt even really a fair comparision since this was 1990, not 2011. For 1990 standards (of the human ladies, not the superhuman Ito) Trenary's performance was much stronger than Ando's for 2011 standards.



    Yes way worse than her. Both had 5 triples, Baiul had no triple combination but Ando had no triple flip, and Baiul's artistry is light years superior. Bonaly and Chen from 93 would have both crushed Ando's LP from the 93 Worlds, and both lost to Baiul (even if controversially so) so...



    Yes WAY worse than Sato. Sato actually had 1 more triple, did both the triple lutz and triple flip, and everything she does between the jumps including the other elements like spins, footwork, spirals is miles better.


    Where would Ando have come at the 2010 Olympics with the same performances? Probably the same spot she finished as it was, 5th place, maybe 4th at a stretch but only since Nagasu was so undermarked.
    The quality of Miki's jumps is far superior to those of Sato. Sato's footwork is unparalleled, but the rest of her skating was not that great as an amateur.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by flipforsynchro View Post
    I'm just saying she COULD have easily won those two titles, not that she was nice and decided to give them to Mao/Miki. I'm not a Yuna fan, I'm just saying that she gave away two WC titles that she could've easily won.
    Which goes to show all of us that it is not "easy" to win a world title.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    The quality of Miki's jumps is far superior to those of Sato. Sato's footwork is unparalleled, but the rest of her skating was not that great as an amateur.
    The only thing Miki can beat Sato in is jumps and 5 triples, no triple-triples, no triple flip and botching your biggest combination is not some stellar jumping display. Sato's spins, footwork, stroking, spirals, choreography, expression, were all much better than anything Ando showed at the 2011 Worlds, especialy her lacklustre by default winning free skate. I can only imagine if Ando was the one who did that skate at the 94 Worlds and beat Bonaly in Japan instead. The temporarily deranged Bonaly or her crazy mom might have done something really scary.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I can only imagine if Ando was the one who did that skate at the 94 Worlds and beat Bonaly in Japan instead. The temporarily deranged Bonaly or her crazy mom might have done something really scary.
    I'm imagining how Surya's behavior could possibly get any worse short of causing bodily harm to the gold medalist. I guess along with refusing to stand on the 2nd podium step and refusing to wear the silver medal in a teary mess, she could also have belted loudly the French National Anthem the entire time during the playing of the Japan anthem and triumphantly waved the French flag in the air like a madwoman trying to tame a wild bull.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    The only thing Miki can beat Sato in is jumps and 5 triples, no triple-triples, no triple flip and botching your biggest combination is not some stellar jumping display. Sato's spins, footwork, stroking, spirals, choreography, expression, were all much better than anything Ando showed at the 2011 Worlds, especialy her lacklustre by default winning free skate. I can only imagine if Ando was the one who did that skate at the 94 Worlds and beat Bonaly in Japan instead. The temporarily deranged Bonaly or her crazy mom might have done something really scary.
    You are criticizing Miki for not having 3-3, but you forget that before the COP got VERY strict about UR, Miki was routinely landing 3L3R combinations. Nobody argues against Yuka's stroking and footwork, but that's all she really had in 94. Her jumps were always labored, the spirals were average, and her expression was always 'a big smile' regardless of what music she skated to. She did not really come into her own until after she turned pro. As an eligible skater, Miki is definitely stronger than Yuka. I know you absolutely hate Miki, so what I say is not going to matter.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    Were it up to me, Schuba would've remained in the game a lot longer and Fleming would've won. Kim would take the "silver".
    WORD.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    You are criticizing Miki for not having 3-3, but you forget that before the COP got VERY strict about UR, Miki was routinely landing 3L3R combinations. Nobody argues against Yuka's stroking and footwork, but that's all she really had in 94. Her jumps were always labored, the spirals were average, and her expression was always 'a big smile' regardless of what music she skated to. She did not really come into her own until after she turned pro. As an eligible skater, Miki is definitely stronger than Yuka. I know you absolutely hate Miki, so what I say is not going to matter.
    You are right I dont like Miki, but the reason I dislike her is quite simple. I am not impressed with her skating, and I dont find it the caliber of a World Champion, let alone a multi World Champion at all. It has nothing to do with a personal grudge or bias since she beat any of my favorites, as frankly while some impress me I am not a big fan of any of her main rivals. I think she is a great lady, but as a skater with her achievements she is much less what one would expect, and I think she is often grossly overmarked in her career especialy in PCS. That said I was completely fine with her 2007 title as while she did need Asada and Kim to make major mistakes she still displayed a very impressive jumping display, which is what a skater like her should have to do in order to ever win a major event, as there is nothing else besides her strong jumps there really. Her 2011 title was a really weak one and at the very least it is silly to suggest it isnt a Worlds Kim couldnt have won in her sleep and that she didnt completely blow or throw away (which is her own fault completely, nobody is disputing that, and we are all agreeing it is a mark against Kim and her career, not an excuse for her) and lost mostly due to how impressive someone else was, LOL!

    I think you hugely underrate the quality of Satos spins as an amateur. They are very strong and far superior to any Ando has ever done. Take a look at her layback and her final scratch spin imparticular in this program and compare to any Ando has done:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVPLjTf2Pr8

    As for spirals Sato has more than adequate spirals, they arent Kwan or Cohen, but how on earth could they be weak compared to Ando who has abysmal spirals where she barely gets her leg to 90s and wobbles to hold her balance.

    You say Sato as an amateur was only great footwork and stroking, fine, but in that case what on earth was Ando besides sometimes great jumps, and as mentioned her 2011 Worlds winning LP wasnt even a display of great jumping with less jump content than a winning performance from the early 90s. Is there anything else Ando can be noted for besides sometimes great jumping, at best she is only ok at a few other things, that is it, and as I say that her last successful 3/3 combos or 7 triple programs were how many years ago now.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Nobody argues against Yuka's stroking and footwork, but that's all she really had in 94. Her jumps were always labored, the spirals were average, and her expression was always 'a big smile' regardless of what music she skated to. She did not really come into her own until after she turned pro. As an eligible skater, Miki is definitely stronger than Yuka.
    OOoops, I was not a huge fan of Yuka as an amateur. But she was definitely a strong skater. Her basics were among the best ever. Her edge jumps were beautiful with great power. And her Lutz & Flip were good technique, even if she was not really consistent with them.
    IMO, she was a better skater than Miki.

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