Spiral degree of Difficulty

[babbyrabbit]

While watching compulsaries recently i was curious what levels different spirals had.

Like does Y spiral get a higher degree then a "chinese" sprial (grabbing opposit hand and leg?

[gkelly]

Individual spiral positions never had levels. Either they were considered "difficult variations" or they weren't.

Both the variations you mentioned could have been considered difficult if performed according to the definitions.

Spiral sequences no longer have levels under IJS and never did in 6.0 judging.

So don't worry about the difficulty. Under the current rules it's best just do positions that look good on your body and allow you to sustain a secure edge.

[babbyrabbit]

Simple and to the point!! Thank you so much!!

[Doubletoe]

Gkelly is right. Now that there are no longer difficulty levels in spirals, the most important things in a spiral are speed, stability, staying on the edge (holding a true inside edge or outside edge without going on a flat or scraping), and extension--i.e., how stretched the position is, how straight both knees are, and how pointed the toes are.

[Aussie Willy]

Spirals don't get counted as individual elements any more. They are part of choreographic sequences. The ladies have to include one in the sequence but it only has to last for "a moment".

[gkelly]

Senior ladies. At lower levels, they're just transitions.

[daisies]

Senior ladies. At lower levels, they're just transitions.

Adults at the Gold and Masters levels also have the option of doing a choreo sequence (or a choreo step sequence), and the ladies and pairs who chose the choreo sequence must also include a spiral. So, not just Senior, at least for now!

[Aussie Willy]

Adults at the Gold and Masters levels also have the option of doing a choreo sequence (or a choreo step sequence), and the ladies and pairs who chose the choreo sequence must also include a spiral. So, not just Senior, at least for now!

The buttons for Choreo Spirals and Choreo Steps have been removed from the data entry screen. So there is only the Choreo Sequence to select. Not sure what is happening with the adult divisions now but I won't be surprised if the Choreo Sequence will be brought in for adults.

[daisies]

The buttons for Choreo Spirals and Choreo Steps have been removed from the data entry screen. So there is only the Choreo Sequence to select. Not sure what is happening with the adult divisions now but I won't be surprised if the Choreo Sequence will be brought in for adults.

What I posted above was for the U.S., so I don't know about other countries, but, again, Gold and Masters adults (in the U.S.) now have the option of a choreo sequence or choreo step sequence. This is new for 2012-13.

Ever since they announced this change, though, I, too, have been wondering about the choreo step button. The choreo step doesn't even exist on the Scale of Values, so I have to assume there will be a separate notification released for adults that will specify how the choreo step will be scored.

[leafygreens]

What I posted above was for the U.S., so I don't know about other countries, but, again, adults (in the U.S.) now have the option of a choreo sequence or choreo step sequence. This is new for 2012-13.

Ever since they announced this change, though, I, too, have been wondering about the choreo step button. The choreo step doesn't even exist on the Scale of Values, so I have to assume there will be a separate notification released for adults that will specify how the choreo step will be scored.

Does this mean that adult gold's can't do a spiral AND a footwork sequence? Because my program has both. The spiral comes first and I hope this does not mean that it cancels out my footwork sequence which comes later.

[daisies]

Does this mean that adult gold's can't do a spiral AND a footwork sequence? Because my program has both. The spiral comes first and I hope this does not mean that it cancels out my footwork sequence which comes later.

I'm not sure -- since the requirements for a choreo sequence are so vague, your spiral sequence might be called as a choreo sequence, especially if it covers the entire ice surface. But you should get a clarification from a tech panelist on that.

Either way, though, you never would have gotten credit for both, even under the old rules when it was a spiral or step sequence. You get credit for the first, and the second just counts as transitions. So it seems like the point might be moot.

[leafygreens]

This just doesn't make sense. My spirals cover about half the ice but that's only as filler between two spread-out jump placements. The footwork sequence is full-ice and really difficult. I don't see why the spirals would cross out the footwork.

It is illogical that in order to get credit for the footwork, I have to just skate from one end of the ice to the other, instead of doing spirals, because they come before the footwork. If there's a footwork sequence then any spirals should count as transitions, IMO.

[sk8er1964]

Quite a bit of IJS is illogical for us - because they are trying to take rules made for elite skaters and make them work for adults, and we have different needs and requirements.

[daisies]

This just doesn't make sense. My spirals cover about half the ice but that's only as filler between two spread-out jump placements. The footwork sequence is full-ice and really difficult. I don't see why the spirals would cross out the footwork.

It is illogical that in order to get credit for the footwork, I have to just skate from one end of the ice to the other, instead of doing spirals, because they come before the footwork. If there's a footwork sequence then any spirals should count as transitions, IMO.

You just answered your own question. A spiral sequence by definition at your level covers the entire ice surface, as does a choreo sequence. Your spiral sequence does not cover the entire ice surface and therefore isn't a sequence and wouldn't be called as such. Sounds like your footwork is safe!

[leafygreens]

Quite a bit of IJS is illogical for us - because they are trying to take rules made for elite skaters and make them work for adults, and we have different needs and requirements.

True but I don't think it makes sense for any level of skater. It interferes with choreography and further puts all programs into that cookie-cutter mold. It shouldn't matter where the requirements come in the program.

I actually asked my coach about this last week and she said the spirals before footwork would count as transitions. But I'm not sure if she's aware of the recent developments, even though she just went to the recent PSA event. Troubling.

Sometimes when the committee makes these changes it just looks like busy-work to justify their existence.

You just answered your own question. A spiral sequence by definition at your level covers the entire ice surface, as does a choreo sequence. Your spiral sequence does not cover the entire ice surface and therefore isn't a sequence and wouldn't be called as such. Sounds like your footwork is safe!

Thanks.

What is confusing about this is that, for example, you can only do two tries of a toe loop, and one has to be in combo. So they're saying with choreo, you can choose either a spiral or a step sequence. However, a spiral and a step sequence are completely different animals that serve different choreo purposes. So it's not really like performing two of the same jump.

[daisies]

What is confusing about this is that, for example, you can only do two tries of a toe loop, and one has to be in combo. So they're saying with choreo, you can choose either a spiral or a step sequence. However, a spiral and a step sequence are completely different animals that serve different choreo purposes. So it's not really like performing two of the same jump.

It's nothing at all like performing two of the same jump. One has nothing to do with the other. All that happened was the rule changed from having the choice between a spiral sequence and a step sequence to having the choice between a choreo sequence and a step sequence. In essence, the choreo sequence replaced the spiral sequence, which no longer exists at any level.

You can do spirals as transitions til the cows come home, but if you make them into a sequence, you potentially risk having them called as a choreo sequence (based on the vague description of said sequence -- I'm not sure if it would actually be counted that way). And, again, a sequence is a full-ice thing, not just a transition into a jump.

Btw, one of the reasons behind the original choice between the spirals and the steps is that not all adults can do spirals, especially as they get older.

[daisies]

I meant to add this before ... you mentioned the difficulty of your footwork sequence. Now that step sequences are choreo and not leveled, judges aren't evaluating their difficulty. They are only evaluating the following for GOE:

1) good energy and execution
2) good speed or acceleration during sequence
3) good clarity and precision
4) deep clean edges (including entry and exit of all turns)
5) good control and commitment of whole body to accuracy of steps
6) creativity and originality
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

Just FYI!

[leafygreens]

It's nothing at all like performing two of the same jump. One has nothing to do with the other. All that happened was the rule changed from having the choice between a spiral sequence and a step sequence to having the choice between a choreo sequence and a step sequence. In essence, the choreo sequence replaced the spiral sequence, which no longer exists at any level.

That's what I was saying. They're nothing alike, yet are being limited to one or the other like they're a jump of the same type. Here is the rule I found in the recent communications:

"Choreographic Sequences consist of any kind of movements such as steps, turns, spirals, arabesques, spread eagles, Ina Bauers, hydroblading, transitional (unlisted) jumps, spinning movements etc. A Choreographic Sequence for Ladies/Pairs must include at least one spiral (not a kick) of any length (by both partners for Pairs). The Sequence commences with the first move and is concluded with the last move of the skater. The pattern is not restricted, but the Sequence must fully utilize the ice surface. If this requirement is not fulfilled, the Sequence will have no value. The Choreographic Sequence is included in Free Skating and for Singles has to be performed after the step sequence. The Choreographic Sequence has a base value and will be evaluated by the judges in GOE only."

You can do spirals as transitions til the cows come home, but if you make them into a sequence, you potentially risk having them called as a choreo sequence (based on the vague description of said sequence -- I'm not sure if it would actually be counted that way). And, again, a sequence is a full-ice thing, not just a transition into a jump.

What I have going on sounds like choreo. I'm going to have to get my coach to look hard at this. It's serpentine and sometimes takes most of the ice if I hold it. I could probably work my way around the rule if I shorten it and don't take full ice.

Btw, one of the reasons behind the original choice between the spirals and the steps is that not all adults can do spirals, especially as they get older.

A choice makes sense but the way the rule is written sounds like, if spiral is performed before footwork, the spiral only counts as transition. So I might be ok in this particular case.

[Doubletoe]

This just doesn't make sense. My spirals cover about half the ice but that's only as filler between two spread-out jump placements. The footwork sequence is full-ice and really difficult. I don't see why the spirals would cross out the footwork.

It is illogical that in order to get credit for the footwork, I have to just skate from one end of the ice to the other, instead of doing spirals, because they come before the footwork. If there's a footwork sequence then any spirals should count as transitions, IMO.

Hopefully, the technical specialist will take his/her cues from your planned element sheet, which shows that you are not attempting a choreo sequence but you do have a step sequence planned. I expect more tweaking and clarifications to the choreo sequence rules as tech panels find themselves confused as to where some of them begin and end. According to the clarifications in the new 2013 First Aid document, the choreo sequence can even include listed jumps (which will be counted against your allowed jumps)!

U.S. Juvenile and Intermediate skaters have a required choreo step sequence (step sequence with no levels of difficulty) and I'm pretty sure it's 2.0 points, the same base value as the choreo sequence. Wish I could find a Juvenile or Intermediate IJS scoresheet to confirm that. . . But anyway, that would be the basis of the scoring for the adult choreo step and choreo sequence as well.

[daisies]

That's what I was saying. They're nothing alike, yet are being limited to one or the other like they're a jump of the same type.

I'm confused by your analogy. Jumps aren't limited to "one or the other"; there is no choice involved. You can do a jump, and if you want to do it again there's no choice but to do it in combo. It’s not the crux of our conversation, though, so oh well!

Here is the rule I found in the recent communications:

"Choreographic Sequences consist of any kind of movements such as steps, turns, spirals, arabesques, spread eagles, Ina Bauers, hydroblading, transitional (unlisted) jumps, spinning movements etc. A Choreographic Sequence for Ladies/Pairs must include at least one spiral (not a kick) of any length (by both partners for Pairs). The Sequence commences with the first move and is concluded with the last move of the skater. The pattern is not restricted, but the Sequence must fully utilize the ice surface. If this requirement is not fulfilled, the Sequence will have no value. The Choreographic Sequence is included in Free Skating and for Singles has to be performed after the step sequence. The Choreographic Sequence has a base value and will be evaluated by the judges in GOE only."

Yes, this is the vague description I was referring to. I mean, “The Sequence commences with the first move and is concluded with the last move of the skater”? Isn’t first and last generally how things start and end? LOL! Totally random. And the things you can include are pretty much anything in skating. So there’s that.

A choice makes sense but the way the rule is written sounds like, if spiral is performed before footwork, the spiral only counts as transition. So I might be ok in this particular case.

Exactly. I don’t think there’s any issue with doing spirals before footwork, as long as they aren’t in a true sequence. Skaters do spirals all the time as transitions into jumps and aren’t dinged for it.