Israeli federation objects to the new minimum TES scores

[paskatefan]

Frankly, other than a mis-spelling, the letter seems quite reasonable and proper. Most on this board also thought the increases were excessive and arbitrary, precisely because it would so drastically reduce the numbers qualifying, thereby making it even more difficult for smaller federations to develop the sport and for figure skating in general to grow in popularity.
Good for him for saying what so many here think - perhaps all the other similarly-affected federations should follow suit.

Yes, that is the Israeli Olympic Committee, not the skating federation - and Chait was not pleased when they would not allow Katz to go to the Olys, so I see nothing inconsistent with his positions.

Re qualifications for Israeli athletes, as 2sk8 noted, those are NOC crtieria, not something thought up by the national federations - they would probably love to send anyone qualifying to the Olympics. I've seen suggestions that Israel's relatively poor performance at the London Olympics may have been due in part with athletes chasing the (rather stringent) qualification standards set for them instead of properly training up to the Olympics. But sometimes you have to look at it as a learning experience for the next Olympics and to develop the sport.

Although it must be said, skating in Israel faces bigger problems than the current minimum scores.

Let's cut the guy some slack.

I hope other small federations follow through.

[TAHbKA]

I'm surprised we haven't heard from Israel sooner... were they even able to send a representative to Kuala Lumpur to participate in the ISU Congress? Kind of unfair if they didn't get to participate because the meeting was held in a country that prohibits entry of Israelis...

Am pretty sure PapaBoria can fetch another country's passport from his big pockets if needed.

[Susan M]

Most on this board also thought the increases were excessive and arbitrary, precisely because it would so drastically reduce the numbers qualifying,

Folks obsessing over this are ignoring the rest of the ISU communication. High qualifying minimums will not reduce the number of skaters are worlds. Elimination of the qualifying round already did that.

The ISU communication clearly says the qualifying score will be moved up or down to achieve the desired field size for each event. Whether they originally set the minimum at 20 or at 100, there should still be 30 skaters in each singles discipline at Worlds. IMO it is way better to set it high then move it down to fill out the field than to set it too low then have to knock out people in spite of scores meeting the standard. Why do so many folks refuse to see this?

You either have QR and lower the minimum scores, or you have no QR and raise the minimum scores. You can't have it both ways. Getting rid of the QR would have consequences, a fool could have seen this coming.

Exactly. They had to raise the standards to a point where there was no chance of more automatic qualifiers than the desired field size. I will be very surprised if they then don't let in more skaters in order of best qualifying score until the fields are full.

And why should the host nation be responsible for the skaters hotel fees and stuff?

Good question. IMO, they totally shouldn't. The ISU gets the bulk of the TV revenue so they should pay for their own officials and the event judges, callers, referees, etc. while each federation pays for their own skaters, coaches, and support folks. Among other things, this would make it a lot easier for smaller countries to host Worlds.

[tralfamadorian]

The ISU communication clearly says the qualifying score will be moved up or down to achieve the desired field size for each event. Whether they originally set the minimum at 20 or at 100, there should still be 30 skaters in each singles discipline at Worlds. IMO it is way better to set it high then move it down to fill out the field than to set it too low then have to knock out people in spite of scores meeting the standard. Why do so many folks refuse to see this?

Just what I was going to say. IMO the ISU is planning to do exactly what Papa Chait is now asking for protest or no protest (allow 24/30 participants), they set the bar on the high side on purpose so that they can control the number of skaters by lowering it later to have exactly as many participants as they want.

[kwanfan1818]

Folks obsessing over this are ignoring the rest of the ISU communication. High qualifying minimums will not reduce the number of skaters are worlds. Elimination of the qualifying round already did that.

The ISU communication clearly says the qualifying score will be moved up or down to achieve the desired field size for each event. Whether they originally set the minimum at 20 or at 100, there should still be 30 skaters in each singles discipline at Worlds. IMO it is way better to set it high then move it down to fill out the field than to set it too low then have to knock out people in spite of scores meeting the standard. Why do so many folks refuse to see this?

We've talked about this numerous times, so it's not that people are not seeing it. However, the ISU has not agreed to keep at least the numbers from last year's SP/SD's, and the current approach just puts a lot of pressure and stress where it need not be. Having the higher score means that weaker federations have to keep sending their skaters to more Senior B's "just in case," which is more expensive for them, and it means more jerking the skaters around.

I don't understand why they didn't use the solution or a modified version they have in place for the Olympics, and have a set number of spots earned at Worlds the year before, and then designate a Senior B as a Worlds qualifier to fill the rest, if they chose an early season one, like Nebelhorn. If the ISU were to choose a later one, they could also allow skaters to qualify through Euros and 4C's by meeting the higher minimum scores, and adjusting the number of spots to be earned at the Senior B. (Since the scores are so high, it's not likely that they'd be filled with no need for the Senior B.) That way, all (or most) of the skaters/teams attempting to qualify would be judged by the same panel at the same competition, and a later Senior B qualifier would be close enough to Worlds to show actual strength at that point in the season.

Senior B organizers don't pay travel expenses or prize money, and a qualifier would guarantee them a relatively strong field.

[Ziggy]

You either have QR and lower the minimum scores, or you have no QR and raise the minimum scores. You can't have it both ways. Getting rid of the QR would have consequences, a fool could have seen this coming. And why should the host nation be responsible for the skaters hotel fees and stuff? Was that one of the reasons the smaller feds got rid of the QR in the first place? Tell the smaller feds to pay for all their skaters and lower the minimum scores or STFU and deal.....or just reinstate the QR, whichever is easier.

You can have it both ways, as long as skaters (or their federations) pay their own expenses.

It's high time the federations suck it up and try to bargain going back to larger fields at ISU competitions in exchange for this.

[Susan M]

You can have it both ways, as long as skaters (or their federations) pay their own expenses.

I don't think the money is the driving force here. It is the need to limit the field to a manageable size.

The problem with allowing anyone in who can pay their way is that yields way too many skaters to accommodate without a qualifying round. One panel of judges and callers can only cope with so many short programs in one day. The ISU has decided that number is 30 for singles. It has to be very tiring to remain that focused for that many hours. As it is, the scoring officials already sometimes seem to have difficulty remaining consistent across 30 entrants.

[bruno6]

I never believed Mr Chait did anything for his skaters. The only person Mr Chait does
Anything for is his daughter. At the cost of Coaches , other Skaters and the sport of Ice dancing. He is one of the reasons Ice Dancing Has become Unrecognizable. All of his games with Judges and destruction to the sport

[Ziggy]

I don't think the money is the driving force here. It is the need to limit the field to a manageable size.

The problem with allowing anyone in who can pay their way is that yields way too many skaters to accommodate without a qualifying round. One panel of judges and callers can only cope with so many short programs in one day. The ISU has decided that number is 30 for singles. It has to be very tiring to remain that focused for that many hours. As it is, the scoring officials already sometimes seem to have difficulty remaining consistent across 30 entrants.

But the judges are somehow managing at other competitions and they have managed before.

Remember that there is a long break between the two halves in cases there's a lot of competitors.

And money has been cited as one of the main reasons for making those changes. The organisers of upcoming ISU competitions said that they can't afford to host them if they have to deal with so many skaters. That's what got the ball rolling.

[Susan M]

But the judges are somehow managing at other competitions

Let's be honest. Nobody but the participants and a handful of fanatics care about the minor competitions. The ISU is worried about judging credibility at their major championships, where the media might be watching.

Remember that there is a long break between the two halves in cases there's a lot of competitors..

A long break only makes it harder. The more hours go by, the harder it is to be consistent between the first competitor and the last.

And money has been cited as one of the main reasons for making those changes. .

The ISU communication assumes the new, limited field will be more costly to host federations, not less.
"Even with these Minimum Total Technical Scores which limit the entries to the necessary reasonable level as described above, the abolishment of the Preliminary Rounds will most likely result in higher expenses for the organizers."

(I personally don't see why, either, but I'm not privy to how these things are financed and who pays for what.)

[Jemestone]

The ISU communication assumes the new, limited field will be more costly to host federations, not less.
"Even with these Minimum Total Technical Scores which limit the entries to the necessary reasonable level as described above, the abolishment of the Preliminary Rounds will most likely result in higher expenses for the organizers."

(I personally don't see why, either, but I'm not privy to how these things are financed and who pays for what.)

I believe this makes sense in the context in which we are speaking about.

When there was the QR, the skaters who didn't make it to the short program, their federation had to foot the hotel bill and related expenses. The skaters who made it pass the QR expenses were covered by the host fed. The smaller feds didn't like this (they would rather not pay for their skaters if they did not qualify to the short program.....or period) and voted to get rid of the QR. Now for upcoming Worlds, the Canadian fed will have to pay for everyone since there is no more QR. This raises the host fed cost to hold an event. The Canadian fed got mad since there is no more QR, they have to make more room (longer hotel stay, more ice time) for skaters who they wouln't normally have to due to said skaters being eliminated in QR and their respective feds footing the bill. This lead to higher qualifying minimums.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ziggy]

Jemestone, how does it raise the cost if the host is paying for exactly the same amount of skaters as when PRs were in place?

A long break only makes it harder. The more hours go by, the harder it is to be consistent between the first competitor and the last.

But it's never consistent anyway.

The ISU communication assumes the new, limited field will be more costly to host federations, not less.
"Even with these Minimum Total Technical Scores which limit the entries to the necessary reasonable level as described above, the abolishment of the Preliminary Rounds will most likely result in higher expenses for the organizers."

(I personally don't see why, either, but I'm not privy to how these things are financed and who pays for what.)

I call bullshit on this one. How exactly would it be more expensive now?

[allezfred]

I believe this makes sense in the context in which we are speaking about.

When there was the QR, the skaters who didn't make it to the short program, their federation had to foot the hotel bill and related expenses. The skaters who made it pass the QR expenses were covered by the host fed. The smaller feds didn't like this (they would rather not pay for their skaters if they did not qualify to the short program.....or period) and voted to get rid of the QR. Now for upcoming Worlds, the Canadian fed will have to pay for everyone since there is no more QR. This raises the host fed cost to hold an event. The Canadian fed got mad since there is no more QR, they have to make more room (longer hotel stay, more ice time) for skaters who they wouln't normally have to due to said skaters being eliminated in QR and their respective feds footing the bill. This lead to higher qualifying minimums.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Please don't lump all the small federations together. Some of them voted to retain the preliminary rounds.

[kwanfan1818]

A long break only makes it harder. The more hours go by, the harder it is to be consistent between the first competitor and the last.

That's certainly true in an ordinals system, where they are expected to remember skaters from hours before to make a direct comparison. However, I would expect more consistency with IJS and the corridor system, since they need to predict what the other judges will do to keep in the corridor and from getting written up. That "consistency" is a consistent problem.

[Susan M]

How exactly would it be more expensive now?

I think they must be talking net rather than total outlays. I would think the organizers are still paying the same expenses for the short and free programs, but they no longer have the ticket revenue from the qualifying rounds. I guess the cost of those rounds to the organizers was less than the revenue.

[elfenblüte]

I wish they would go back to the preliminary rounds, and every ISU member has the right to send a skater to the World championships again. It is not a real World Championship when only skaters from 6 countries are competing.

[Susan M]

I wish they would go back to the preliminary rounds, and every ISU member has the right to send a skater to the World championships again. It is not a real World Championship when only skaters from 6 countries are competing.

Well, your numbers are a bit off, but it is a good point (and probably an even bigger issue in pairs and dance than singles). Out of curiosity, I checked ladies event at last year's Worlds. Among the 30 short program skaters, there were 23 different countries represented. There were 20 additional countries with entries in the qualifying round but nobody advancing to the SP.

So, with the new field size limit of 30, barely half as many federations (23/43) would get to send a skater in this discipline. Of course, this would be just as true whether they use qualifying scores or a separate qualifying event.

It's just that the qualifying rounds have been so problematic over the years. They have tried a number of different approaches and people found things to complain about with all of them.

Maybe they need to make it harder for countries to get two or three slots, or get rid of the current approach to slots altogether.

[Jemestone]

Well I said correct me if I was wrong

[VALuvsMKwan]

Well I said correct me if I was wrong

And apparently your request was granted...why the ?

[Ziggy]

I think they must be talking net rather than total outlays. I would think the organizers are still paying the same expenses for the short and free programs, but they no longer have the ticket revenue from the qualifying rounds. I guess the cost of those rounds to the organizers was less than the revenue.

Hardly any tickets for the Preliminary Rounds were sold.

I remember now. Morry Stillwell explained in another thread that it's the entry fees. Now that the fields have been drastically reduced, the organisers won't be earning all the money from entry fees from the skaters who wouldn't make the SP.

But then this is the ISU's fault. They could just let everybody skate the SP in two groups like before.