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  1. #61
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    I will be interested to see how this all plays out, given the strict qualification requirements for ISU Championships. If the ISU is serious about having ten entries in the Team event in Sochi, there could be skaters from countries like Austria, Bulgaria, and Israel who lack the TES to compete at Worlds or even Euros/4CC's.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    This seems very poorly thought out. The athletes don't even have a choice if they want to compete in team or not. I don't see why any athlete wouldn't want a 2nd medal chance, but they should have the choice.
    I suppose the Feds can force/coerce skaters into doing the team event, including two different skaters/teams for two of the four disciplines. I wonder if they'll come up with guidelines, including first right of refusal if there's more than one entry for a discipline.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I don't know that I would say they would be an integral part of it, because of the way the team event is scored. In the gymnastics team event, they add up the scores of everyone who competes. You can have a specialist like Ross or Maroney who only does one or two events, but in order to add value to the team, they need to do them well. The figure skating system is set up so that the countries receive points based on where they ranked. If the Reeds finish last in the free, as is expected, then they will earn the same points whether they perform excellently or not, whether they are 2 points behind the leaders or 30 points behind.
    That is why I agree with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    It would probably be better if they just added everyone's scores together. Some events tend to score higher than others (men more than women, for example), but since every country contributes one SP and one LP per discipline, it wouldn't be unfair, and it would add some drama to the competition. Commentators would be able to say "she needs xxx points to bring the USA into the lead" like in gymnastics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    If Japan expects to finish last in dance anyway, my understanding is they can basically send any man and woman who meet the age and citizenship requirements and they can go on the ice and do whatever, earn negligible points, and still get the same points for finishing in last place.
    They wouldn't be able to meet even last year's minimum scores.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post

    They wouldn't be able to meet even last year's minimum scores.
    Do they need to meet minimum scores for Olympics or just Worlds? I always forget about that (I would fit right in on Plushy's coaching team!).

    And another question I had.... someone mentioned that figure skaters should have a choice as to whether they do the team event. Do gymnasts get a choice? I assume not, because they have to go through qualifying to make AA/EF and it would be odd if they could skip team, having assisted the team in qualifying.

  4. #64
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    I'm assuming that there will be a minimum score for the Olympics, since it's considered a major championship, but which one is hard to say, since there's already an established cut-off for the number of participants. The Olympic Qualifier is usually a Senior B, for which there have been no minimums up to this point.

    For gymnastics, I'm not sure if there's a rule that everyone on the team has to do at least one apparatus in the team final (unless there is an approved medical reason). If not I think the coaches could choose to drop a specialist from his/her only expected event, if s/he had a weak performance in qualifying or suffered a minor injury, since only three do the individual events.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    It would probably be better if they just added everyone's scores together. Some events tend to score higher than others (men more than women, for example), but since every country contributes one SP and one LP per discipline, it wouldn't be unfair, and it would add some drama to the competition. Commentators would be able to say "she needs xxx points to bring the USA into the lead" like in gymnastics.
    ^I think that would be a way better way to do it, too

  6. #66
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    If they wanted to adjust for differences in the PCS factor and technical elements, so that, for example, a poor Men's program couldn't trump a great Dance program, they could come up with a balancing multiplier, or they could calculate how far each score was off the mean for that discipline and add it together, to get the magnitude of how much better or worse they did.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    ^Wouldn't it all be proportional since every good mens program would trump every good dance program? Dance would just generally make up less of the total? Hypothetically.

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    Top scores from last year's SB list (GPs, Championships, WTT):

    Pairs 212.26
    Dance 188.55
    Men 276.72
    Ladies 192.41

    Were the scores strictly cumulative, if a country is strongest in Dance, where the scores are more clustered than in Men's:

    US vs. Canada: +5.54
    US vs. France: +15.37
    US vs. Russia: +25.03
    US vs. Italy: +26.55
    US vs. Germany: +47.19
    US vs. China: +58.28
    US vs. Japan*: +65.33

    they're at a disadvantage. (If the clusters change, then the advantages and disadvantages shift.)

    *The Reeds SB score from two seasons ago, when he wasn't injured, was a few points higher than Huang/Zheng's this year.

    In Men's, the SB list shows, the range between the top score and the weakest score from teams expected to contend is ~42% greater in Men's, without even a score from Italy #2. Bacchini's top score last season was 10.28 lower than Liebers', but he could get a bump for becoming ITA #1.) And Liebers' score was 43rd highest, while the Reeds' score was 39th highest, who were only 10% higher in rank.

    Japan vs. Canada: +2.78
    Japan vs. Russia: +15.49
    Japan vs. France: +32.14
    Japan vs. US: +37.9
    Japan vs. China: +49.97
    Japan vs. Germany: +92.59

    I assume the reason they decided to use ranking rather than a cumulative score is to avoid comparing apples to oranges. They could create a weighting system, such as a % applied to each discipline, to at least main the relative strengths within each disciplines.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 08-15-2012 at 05:45 AM.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I suppose the Feds can force/coerce skaters into doing the team event, including two different skaters/teams for two of the four disciplines. I wonder if they'll come up with guidelines, including first right of refusal if there's more than one entry for a discipline.
    Actually, I think a strong Federation will make "participation in the Team Event per request of the Federation" a condition to being named to the Olympic Team.

    Anyways, I think it is going to be hilarious if / when a Japanese dance team gets an Olympic medal via the Team Event...
    Last edited by Marco; 08-15-2012 at 10:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Anyways, I think it is going to be hilarious if / when a Japanese dance team gets an Olympic medal via the Team Event...
    The odds of this happening in Sochi seem slim - unless Mervin Tran has sorted out the citizenship issue? Otherwise, who knows - maybe we'll see a Japanese dance team before we see another top pair.

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post

    It would probably be better if they just added everyone's scores together. Some events tend to score higher than others (men more than women, for example), but since every country contributes one SP and one LP per discipline, it wouldn't be unfair, and it would add some drama to the competition. Commentators would be able to say "she needs xxx points to bring the USA into the lead" like in gymnastics.
    I would love this - but the problem is that it would put more pressure on the high scoring parts to bring them more 'ahead'. It would be interesting if getting 2nd and 3rd in all events would be better than getting 1st in 3 and last in 4th...

    Also, unless Japan puts together a pair soon (or gives Tran citizenship), I doubt the Reeds will be in a position to help Japan get any medals...

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    I will be interested to see how this all plays out, given the strict qualification requirements for ISU Championships. If the ISU is serious about having ten entries in the Team event in Sochi, there could be skaters from countries like Austria, Bulgaria, and Israel who lack the TES to compete at Worlds or even Euros/4CC's.
    I don´t think those (named) countries have any chances to be in Sochi. I do not have a chart for 2011/2012 season but if I remember correctly those one from 2 or 3 seasons before contained (in Top 10 in no specific order):

    Canada, China, France, Russia, USA, Japan, Italy as expected Top 7 + I think Germany, Czech Republic, Ukraine or Great Britain. Also pretty acceptable entries for team events in all 4 disciplines. Also up in the rankings were those like Switzerland, Finland, Sweden, Poland, Korea (because of Yu-na). I hope I did not omiss anybody important. I think now Spain has a slight chance too, but as their junior pair team split, who knows. And we never know who would be bought to Azerbaijan .

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    Quote Originally Posted by oubik View Post
    Canada, China, France, Russia, USA, Japan, Italy as expected Top 7 + I think Germany, Czech Republic, Ukraine or Great Britain. Also pretty acceptable entries for team events in all 4 disciplines. Also up in the rankings were those like Switzerland, Finland, Sweden, Poland, Korea (because of Yu-na). I hope I did not omiss anybody important. I think now Spain has a slight chance too, but as their junior pair team split, who knows. And we never know who would be bought to Azerbaijan .
    Apparently the Czech Republic, Germany and Spain were the other top ten countries for the 2011-12 season - there's this document to support that, though I don't recall seeing it on the ISU website. As you noted, Spain's pairs situation seems uncertain, so I can see Sweden or S. Korea moving on up. I suppose Great Britain has an outside shot as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Apparently the Czech Republic, Germany and Spain were the other top ten countries for the 2011-12 season - there's this document to support that, though I don't recall seeing it on the ISU website. As you noted, Spain's pairs situation seems uncertain, so I can see Sweden or S. Korea moving on up. I suppose Great Britain has an outside shot as well.
    Thanks for updating. Looks pretty reasonable to me.

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    Can you opt out of the team competition. Someone like S&S would have virtually no chance at a team medal, so why not focus on their event, especially if it will take place right after the team event?

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    Can you opt out of the team competition. Someone like S&S would have virtually no chance at a team medal, so why not focus on their event, especially if it will take place right after the team event?
    The same is true for most of these countries.

  17. #77
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    I think this is really a terrible idea. These athletes structure their whole two to four years of training, competing etc to peak for the games. And now they may have to do the programs before the actual event that counts. Think it is what too hard on the athletes. What if they get injured. What a waste that would be. If anything it should be held after all the individual medals are awarded.
    I also think the WTT was stupid too.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by oubik View Post
    Canada, China, France, Russia, USA, Japan, Italy as expected Top 7 + I think Germany, Czech Republic, Ukraine or Great Britain.
    Although I have some vague recollection of a discussion that the Team Competition might be structured in such a way to allow the participation of teams with competitors in only three disciplines, it appears from everything I have seen recently that countries will have to have entries in all four disciplines.

    Japan has no Olympic-eligible pair and, barring an act of the Diet, it isn't going to have one. There really is no serious prospect that Japan is going to grant Mervin Tran citizenship. The governing party is interested in liberalizing citizenship rules, but it's not going to start off by granting citizenship to someone who has never lived in Japan and (apparently) doesn't speak, let alone read, the language.

    I'm not sure that either Ukraine or the Czech Republic even has an Olympic-eligible pair. Neither sent a pair to this year's Worlds. The Czech Republic did send a female singles skater. She finished 41st.

    Great Britain's male singles skater finished 37th at Worlds. Jenna McCorkell is retiring, I believe. The next best British lady would probably have finished well below 30th if she had competed.

    The German Olympic Committee has a tendency to impose its own very strict qualifying requirements. It refused to send Annette Dytrt to Vancouver. Don't count on it sending a team to Sochi. (To be fair, the Israeli Olympic Committee has a tendency to do the same thing.)

    And it remains to be seen whether France will actually have a pair in 2013-14.

    So the chances that we will be watching Austria and Bulgarian teams are actually quite good.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Although I have some vague recollection of a discussion that the Team Competition might be structured in such a way to allow the participation of teams with competitors in only three disciplines, it appears from everything I have seen recently that countries will have to have entries in all four disciplines.

    Japan has no Olympic-eligible pair and, barring an act of the Diet, it isn't going to have one. There really is no serious prospect that Japan is going to grant Mervin Tran citizenship. The governing party is interested in liberalizing citizenship rules, but it's not going to start off by granting citizenship to someone who has never lived in Japan and (apparently) doesn't speak, let alone read, the language.

    I'm not sure that either Ukraine or the Czech Republic even has an Olympic-eligible pair. Neither sent a pair to this year's Worlds. The Czech Republic did send a female singles skater. She finished 41st.

    Great Britain's male singles skater finished 37th at Worlds. Jenna McCorkell is retiring, I believe. The next best British lady would probably have finished well below 30th if she had competed.

    The German Olympic Committee has a tendency to impose its own very strict qualifying requirements. It refused to send Annette Dytrt to Vancouver. Don't count on it sending a team to Sochi. (To be fair, the Israeli Olympic Committee has a tendency to do the same thing.)

    And it remains to be seen whether France will actually have a pair in 2013-14.

    So the chances that we will be watching Austria and Bulgarian teams are actually quite good.
    France has a pairs team with James and Cipres.

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    The Czech Republic does have a pair, Alexandra Herbrikova/Rudy Halmaert. They got 13th at Euros. I think he might be a French citizen though?

    And fun fact, the lady who got 41st at Worlds is Michal Brezina's sister, Eliska Brezinova

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