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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theatregirl1122 View Post
    And maybe I'm the only person on earth, but I'm thrilled about it. It's always been a little heartbreaking to me that, in skating, everyone only has one chance for Gold every four years. This way it will be more like Gymnastics. Where you will have individual and team gold medalists. And I don't really think that Gymnastics is inherently much more of a team sport than Figure skating. Plus, I think it'll actually be really nice for the skaters to get to be on a team. It seems like the swimmers, for example, really like getting to be on a team for relays and have that experience instead of always having to be individual competitors. It seems to be the same for Gymnastics.
    I think gymnastics is more of a team sport than figure skating. Multiple athletes compete at one time in gymnastics - which is something that just baffles me - and gymnastics routines are short. No single event in gymnastics compares to a single FS program.

    No offense to gymnasts, but FS programs are a complete experience in themselves in a way no single gymnastic routine can ever be. When skaters take to the ice for their SP and to a much greater extent, the FP, there is the sense of the whole ice rink being a stage for a complete experience of moment.

    Part of that experience is the program being skated for the first time on an large Olympic stage of ice. When I think of some of my favourite Olympic FS programs, such as Yags 2002 or V/M 2010 FP to name just a few, there is the element of surprise. That is, the skater's bring heart and soul as well as body to the program in creating an unforgettable moment. There is 4 1/2 minutes of moments that tell a story. Gymnastics just isn't the same IMO.

    To have those programs skated earlier in the Olympics in a team competition would water down the impact of the individual FP, IMO. Skaters can't bring heart, body, and soul to the same program in the same way two times. And if they just go through the motions in the team competition, the FP won't have the same wow effect. The skaters have to create a moment twice that can only really be created once to full effect.

  2. #42

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    I think a lot of the concerns people have about the team event would be alleviated if it were scheduled at the end of the Olympics rather than the beginning; that way it would be the cherry on top rather than screwing up with the skaters preparation for their individual events, and a second chance for those who don't do as well. For countries with multiple entries, it would also make it easier to choose between their skaters.

    I'd also like to see every team in the event be allowed to carry two entries, even if they only qualified one skater/team. It seems unfair that some countries will be able to send out different skaters for the SP and FS; also unfair to those skaters, who will have to skate four programs in a short period of time. While that can happen on the GP, the GP is considerably lower pressure.

    In other words - I like the idea of a team event, but I think they need to do a better job with the logistics of it.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    The whole point of figure skating is that you are expected to show all those skills seamlessly blended into a program (in which you are skating to the music and showing interesting choreography and transitions).

    I can't imagine anything more boring and pointless than skaters doing individual elements.
    I agree !!!

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by alchemy void View Post
    Yes, because the Top Jump competition in the early 2000s was so legendary and enthralling to watch.
    :
    I thought it was Epic! Bit of an improved soundtrack and I'd be down for it!!

    It could be akin to diving where you present a program of 8 different dives/jumps, maybe 2 combos, average of all. The difficulty level is up to you.....

    I'm digging this idea!

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    The whole point of figure skating is that you are expected to show all those skills seamlessly blended into a program (in which you are skating to the music and showing interesting choreography and transitions).

    I can't imagine anything more boring and pointless than skaters doing individual elements.
    But what about figures? Those weren't done in a program. That may be "the point" now, but why does it always have to be? Why can't there be individual elements? In the USFS jump or spin contests, you perform a mini-program without music and it only includes jumps or spins and connecting steps. I don't think this would be boring at all.

    Gymnasts don't perform every single one of their events to music, just the floor exercise. I've never heard of an audience member getting bored of vault because it's quick and without music.

  6. #46
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    As I mentioned, I think fs can look to some other sports for ideas and inspiration, but adopting or adapting anything has to be done in a way that enhances and benefits figure skating. In that sense, although there are perhaps some viable comparisons with other sports, I agree with those who have described the unique qualities of figure skating that really can not be compared with any other sport. In that respect, comparing various gymnastics apparatus events to fs programs or possible fs element competitions, I think isn't the best comparison.

    The gymnastics floor routine as it has evolved, to me seems to have not as much to do with performing routines to music, as it does to throwing in as many jumping passes as humanly possible. Since I haven't been following gymnastics that closely for many years, I was aghast -- I didn't like what I saw in general re the floor exercises at London Olympics. Sure the gymnasts are all beautiful athletes with amazing skills and athletic abilities, but as for the floor routines, I definitely missed the dance/ balletic qualities of the past -- the music now seems superfluous to the routines for the most part.

    Vault in gymnastics is very quick, yes and music is not needed although there is often music playing in the background as someone else performs a floor routine. I don't see a direct comparison to figure skating in these instances. For e.g., in a gymnastics arena, several gymnasts perform at the same time on different apparatus. Outside of warm-ups or skating shows, competitors in figure skating do not perform in the arena at the same time. I did see a just for fun spinning competition recently where all the competitors were on the ice, but I think breaking down elements into element only events is something that really needs careful thinking through. As others have posted, in fs the various elements need to come together into a seamless performance -- that is the ultimate objective of fs. When young skaters are tested on elements in order to move up to another level that is different from actually breaking down elements for the purpose of awarding individual medals. Not saying it can't be done, as I am a fan of rethinking how the sport is structured. I think tho' that breaking down elements for competitive purposes needs careful thinking through, and I don't think element events should necessarily take place at major competitions. I would love to see skaters having more opportunities to medal, but the idea is not as easy to translate as I originally thought it might be.

    I think the sport needs to focus more on the judging issues, the constantly changing rules conundrum, and on how skaters are ranked. IMO, the depth and talent level has expanded so much that a different kind of structure needs to be contemplated so that talented skaters from all countries will have a better chance to compete and progress in the sport. Once again, of course, easier said than done. What is easier and helpful for skaters, in my estimation is the ability to bring back figures as a separate competition -- again start out on a local club level first to determine the possibilities.

    I agree that the team event should not come first, especially not for the first time at Sochi. And, I think it is important to experiment with this concept of team event at a major competition first as a trail run before putting it out there for the first time at the Olympics. They do need to think about skaters' endurance too. Team comp first just doesn't work for fs. What do skaters think about the team comp being placed first?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post

    The gymnastics floor routine as it has evolved, to me seems to have not as much to do with performing routines to music, as it does to throwing in as many jumping passes as humanly possible. Since I haven't been following gymnastics that closely for many years, I was aghast -- I didn't like what I saw in general re the floor exercises at London Olympics. Sure the gymnasts are all beautiful athletes with amazing skills and athletic abilities, but as for the floor routines, I definitely missed the dance/ balletic qualities of the past -- the music now seems superfluous to the routines for the most part
    That's the same thing that's happened in figure skating. No time to concentrate on artistry because they have to fit in as many "points" as possible.

    The time should not even be a factor in a jump or spin competition. Take the top scores from World Championships jump and spin competition, same as freeskate qualifications. If time is really a factor then only take the top 12 jumpers/spinners. Easy. It probably wouldn't even take more than 2 days.

    If they take the top 12 in jump, spin, men, women, pairs, that's only 96 (maximum) more competitors and some of them would overlap anyway because they'd qualify in both jump and spin and freeskate. The Olympic village is massive and could hold that many people. It shouldn't be a big deal.

    It's really kind of hypocritical for hundreds of thousands of people to be crammed into a stadium for opening ceremonies yet they claim they can't fit in a few dozen more athletes. They are spending billions of dollars on these events. Cut back on some fireworks and concerts and get back to the real focus of the Olympics - the actual sports competitions. If they did that then there would be more than enough resources for a couple more skating events.

  8. #48
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    People just don't like change. Too bad there wasn't an internet so we can look back and see how many people thought ice dancing was a bad idea. Why not just add ballroom dancing to the summer Olympics? Now you can't imaging a competition without it. In 30 years this competition aspect will be a non-issue.

    I don't even have a problem with when it's held or the supposed format. My only problem is they should have be holding it outside the Olympic competition for 3-5 years before introducing at Olympic competition. They have only held the WTT twice and that isn't how it's going to be anyway. So the inaugural first team competition should not be held at the Olympics and I have a feeling it will be a mess; not just logistically but for the athletes as well.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    But what about figures? Those weren't done in a program.
    Yes and they are gone now. And when they were still part of the competition, nobody watched them.

    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    Why can't there be individual elements?
    Because it would be boring and pointless.

    And I couldn't care less whether a skater can land a jump when they are not out of breath and have just done the length of the rink of crossovers into it. It means nothing.

    Can you land a jump when you are already out of breath having performed a number of technical elements, with transitions before, blending it into a program?

    That is what makes figure skating an interesting and extremely difficult sport.

    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    Gymnasts don't perform every single one of their events to music, just the floor exercise. I've never heard of an audience member getting bored of vault because it's quick and without music.
    It's nowhere near as exciting as skating.

  10. #50
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    Sorry, but those are all pretty weak arguments.

    I didn't say keep figures. The point is, that skating has evolved over the years. First there were no women. Then there were figures. Then there was ice dance. Then there was a new scoring system (which gymnastics modeled its scoring system after). Just because there haven't been event changes in 40-50 years doesn't mean there can't be any more changes, ever. Evolving has happened through out the history of the sport.

    Because it would be boring and pointless.
    Then don't watch it. Somehow I think you would not think it too boring when it's an actual event. Do you also feel that vaults are boring? Because they don't show multiple events simultaneously on TV. It's one athlete at a time. What about diving? Is it boring and pointless to have a platform when there's already a springboard? It must not take a lot of "endurance" if they're not doing it in a program.

    And I couldn't care less whether a skater can land a jump when they are not out of breath and have just done the length of the rink of crossovers into it. It means nothing.
    Would you feel the same way if the skater performed a quadruple axel, because they had the energy saved from not having to do an entire program? So the skater has to be "out of breath" or the accomplishment means nothing? I would think that performing harder jumps, would make you out of breath anyway, which is kind of silly to use that as a determination. I doubt the overweight curlers and shooters get very much out of breath.

  11. #51
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    Figure skating isn't gymnastics and it isn't diving. It isn't curling or shooting either. It's an entirely different sport, which is the whole point.

    Those sports are about performing specific technical elements and that is it. And funnily enough they are way less popular than skating is.

    Figure skating is very different because it requires skaters not only to execute technical elements but also to show a variety of other skills (PCS) and to perform those elements as part of a program which is supposed to be a harmonious whole.

    This is what is actually difficult. Having the stamina and the skill set to do that.

  12. #52
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    We might have Tuktamysheva as 3A champion and Kim as 3Lo champion, and so on. lol.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    I think gymnastics is more of a team sport than figure skating. Multiple athletes compete at one time in gymnastics - which is something that just baffles me - and gymnastics routines are short. No single event in gymnastics compares to a single FS program.

    No offense to gymnasts, but FS programs are a complete experience in themselves in a way no single gymnastic routine can ever be. When skaters take to the ice for their SP and to a much greater extent, the FP, there is the sense of the whole ice rink being a stage for a complete experience of moment.

    Part of that experience is the program being skated for the first time on an large Olympic stage of ice. When I think of some of my favourite Olympic FS programs, such as Yags 2002 or V/M 2010 FP to name just a few, there is the element of surprise. That is, the skater's bring heart and soul as well as body to the program in creating an unforgettable moment. There is 4 1/2 minutes of moments that tell a story. Gymnastics just isn't the same IMO.

    To have those programs skated earlier in the Olympics in a team competition would water down the impact of the individual FP, IMO. Skaters can't bring heart, body, and soul to the same program in the same way two times. And if they just go through the motions in the team competition, the FP won't have the same wow effect. The skaters have to create a moment twice that can only really be created once to full effect.
    I agree. If there has to be a team event, I'd rather see something new with all the members of a team involved -- something akin to the team competition in rhythmic gymnastics, (but I know there are separate athletes for team and individual in RG).

  14. #54

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    I'm a little confused about the whole thing. Can I just ask clarification from those who are not confused?

    1. Does the Team have to be selected from skaters who are already on the Olympic Team for the individual events?

    2. Is it 1 man, 1 lady, 1 pair, 1 dance couple? I think that's how I read it but I'm not sure.

  15. #55

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    Here's an earlier thread with more info on the specifics: Team competition at Sochi
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  16. #56

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    I think a team event is exciting, and I think it is great to force a balanced program in member countries.

    However, I think it is a shame it is at the before the individual competition, and not after.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maatTheViking View Post
    I think a team event is exciting, and I think it is great to force a balanced program in member countries.

    However, I think it is a shame it is at the before the individual competition, and not after.
    I think it's exciting, too. Can't wait! More figure skating for the world to see? Can't think of anything better.

    As for team being before individual competition, there will be mixed feelings depending on the results. If someone skates great for the team, but bombs in individual, people will be saying it's unfair because the skater was "tired" after team...

    But it could work the other way, too. A skater could get the feel of the ice and shake off nerves by skating in the team event and then skate lights out a few days later. I can think of many a skater from past Olympics who would have loved to have more than one chance...

    Bottom line: these skaters are trained athletes. As with any sport, they will play by the rules and the results will determine the survival of the fittest.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Here's an earlier thread with more info on the specifics: Team competition at Sochi
    Cheers, both questions answered.

    Team Russia looking mighty strong even from this far out. How many countries actually have the depth to pull this off? Maybe Team USA...

  19. #59

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    If Joannie comes back, then Canada will field a very solid team. Big if...

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    Exactly. If Japan were to win gold (it's likely at this point), then the Reeds were an integral part of that team and they deserve their gold too! Without the Reeds' score in the ice dance portion, they would not have been able to win the gold.
    I don't know that I would say they would be an integral part of it, because of the way the team event is scored. In the gymnastics team event, they add up the scores of everyone who competes. You can have a specialist like Ross or Maroney who only does one or two events, but in order to add value to the team, they need to do them well. The figure skating system is set up so that the countries receive points based on where they ranked. If the Reeds finish last in the free, as is expected, then they will earn the same points whether they perform excellently or not, whether they are 2 points behind the leaders or 30 points behind. If Japan expects to finish last in dance anyway, my understanding is they can basically send any man and woman who meet the age and citizenship requirements and they can go on the ice and do whatever, earn negligible points, and still get the same points for finishing in last place.

    It would probably be better if they just added everyone's scores together. Some events tend to score higher than others (men more than women, for example), but since every country contributes one SP and one LP per discipline, it wouldn't be unfair, and it would add some drama to the competition. Commentators would be able to say "she needs xxx points to bring the USA into the lead" like in gymnastics.

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