Gymnastics apparatus finals - Part 2

[Skittl1321]

You can't ignore one entire event.

I'm not ignoring an entire event. I am comparing the placement in ALL the events. Raisman placed higher 3 times, Mustafina placed higher 1 time. That tells me overall, Raisman consistently did better than Mustafina did. All around is about the overall performance, since they tied across 4 events, they clearly are equal across four events, but this tells me that Raisman was better in four events.

Dropping the lowest scoring event just means the person who did BETTER on their worst event is punished. That makes no sense to me at all. Mustafina was rewarded for having a horrible beam, because her dropped score represented more of her overall score.

[pollyanna]

Bek, you really aren't making sense.

I hope someone at FIG with at least some brain matter will come up with a tiebreak system that actually makes sense. (Although if high jump and other sports can have ties, why can't artistic gymnastics?) Dropping/ignoring one entire event in a four event AA makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[Skittl1321]

And once again no I don't think just because Raisman does one extra twist on vault, that makes her a better gymnast than Aliya... In terms of beam I have no doubt Mustafina will be back in form there in a few a months.

Mustafina is probably a better gymnast, but she wasn't on that night, IMO. Her beam may usually be better- but it was downright terrible.

The extra twist- well, that is a scoring issue. Right now the code says that the extra twist is worth that. Just like I think the tie break should be changed, that probably should be too. (That said, an extra twist really might be that hard. Sure seems a lot harder to do good quads than a good 3A...it's just a half revolution more)

[ioana]

Although if high jump and other sports can have ties, why can't artistic gymnastics?

Completely agree. I think the days when over half the finalists were on the podium in the 80's and early 90's are long gone.

[bek]

I'm not ignoring an entire event. I am comparing the placement in ALL the events. Raisman placed higher 3 times, Mustafina placed higher 1 time. That tells me overall, Raisman consistently did better than Mustafina did. All around is about the overall performance, since they tied across 4 events, they clearly are equal across four events, but this tells me that Raisman was better in four events.

Dropping the lowest scoring event just means the person who did BETTER on their worst event is punished. That makes no sense to me at all. Mustafina was rewarded for having a horrible beam, because her dropped score represented more of her overall score.

Well I agree with that, but I think pointing out that Aliya executed well on three events and Raisman only did on two events is a fair point too. Yes Raisman's messed up beam was better than Mustafina's but it was hardly well done.. Two of her events were badly done and I don't know why Raisman's fans are so quick to ignore that.

I think a better tie breaker is to go first with the person who had the highest execution and that actually would benefit Aliya. Who didn't have the difficulty of Raisman but actually DID execute better across all for events.

[Loves_Shizuka]

She use mixes of various music, I only know 2 of them.

One are from movie killbill and the main music is "Bajofondo - Grand Guignol "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOPVLcMAyMQ

Wheee, bloody love it!

THank you!

[skatingfan5]

Well I agree with that, but I think pointing out that Aliya executed well on three events and Raisman only did on two events is a fair point too. Yes Raisman's messed up beam was better than Mustafina's but it was hardly well done.. Two of her events were badly done and I don't know why Raisman's fans are so quick to ignore that.

This was a competition, in which 8 gymnasts were competing AGAINST one another wrt how well they performed. The AA takes the total of their scores on the 4 events, but I don't see why it is so hard to grasp that perhaps one gymnast performing better on 3 of those 4 relative to the person she was tied with, might have some bearing. If Aly and Aliya had each done relatively poorly on all 4 events, they still could conceivably have been involved in a tie for bronze if the other 4 non-medalists had done even worse. Of course, I would hate to have something like that happen as it would mean a competition, but the medals are determined by the gymnasts' performances relative to each other, not on some absolute scale of execution/performance.

[milanessa]

Crotchety Old Man to Aly's Parents...Sit Down

I think they should have a special viewing section reserved for athlete's families. Imagine the drama then!

[Theatregirl1122]

It was actually a competition between 24 gymnasts.

I don't know why it is so hard for you to admit, bek, that the only event where Aliya was able to outscore Aly was bars. I adore Aliya. If she'd performed brilliantly and won the bronze over Aly, I'd be perfectly happy for her. She's a great Gymnast. But the question here is not "who is the better Gymnast?" That's irrelevant. We only care about who performed better on one day. The question isn't even "who performed better on that day?" Because, according the the judges, over four events they were the same. The question is, if we have a tie breaker, what would be a fair tie breaker that actually acknowledges all four events. Dropping the lowest of the four apparatus is one of the worst ways to do it because it rewards the person whose weakest event was the worst. And it's illogical since all events do not score the same.

[skatingfan5]

It was actually a competition between 24 gymnasts.

Oops, you are right -- having this in the apparatus finals thread (and having that for the last 3 days of competition) has definitely messed with my brain!

But the question here is not "who is the better Gymnast?" That's irrelevant. We only care about who performed better on one day. The question isn't even "who performed better on that day?" Because, according the the judges, over four events they were the same. The question is, if we have a tie breaker, what would be a fair tie breaker that actually acknowledges all four events. Dropping the lowest of the four apparatus is one of the worst ways to do it because it rewards the person whose weakest event was the worst. And it's illogical since all events do not score the same.

Completely agree with you on this.

[Ozzisk8tr]

I think they should have a special viewing section reserved for athlete's families. Imagine the drama then!

I think that should be televised.

[taf2002]

In a future competition, if breaking the AA tie results in a gymnast like Aly winning the medal & a gymnast like Aliya being out of the medals, would you want the tie broken a different way? Because some of you who are arguing sound that way. In many of the events (not just AA), the bronze medalist basically sucked, but sucked less than the rest of the field. Both Aliya & Aly sucked in the AA compared to what they both potentially can do. Did Aliya deserve the bronze because she is usually better than Aly?

In the vault final, Maroney's 2nd vault didn't have her typical landing. Should the judges have said well, she is much better than the rest of the field so we'll give her the gold medal? We'll ignore it the way we ignored Aliya falling off the beam in the AA. BTW, I don't think you can say that anyone who makes the AA final is terrible on any apparatus. If she was, she wouldn't have been able to beat most of the field in qualifying for the AA.

[justAfsfan]

Have anyone read this yet?

It's seem that Hak Seon come from poor background and with this gold it help his family improve their financial situation. I admire how he has fight to come to this point so much. Truely deserve champion!

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/09/wo...ast/index.html

[Loves_Shizuka]

^Great story!!

[gingercrush]

Mustafina won according to the rules the FIG had in place. Considering she had the best score when the three best scores for each were combined showed that she was the best AAer. Makes sense to me. All kinds of arguments could be made so one gymnast is more legitimate than the other. Regardless Mustafina won according to the rules set in place prior to the event happening.

Not ideal though but the IOC/FIG don't want tie breaks.

[judgejudy27]

Her bars were poorly done. Just because you are always going to be terrible, doesn't make it a hit routine.

She didnt make an actual mistake though. It was as well as she could have done. I thought that was the definition of a hit routine. Of course if someone else is better than you, you can hit more than them and still lose.

[Jimena]

In a future competition, if breaking the AA tie results in a gymnast like Aly winning the medal & a gymnast like Aliya being out of the medals, would you want the tie broken a different way?

No. I'd still go with the E-score then D-score. I don't like the "count only 3 scores" rule much.

If a gymnast like Aliya has an E score that is lower than a gymnast like Raisman, it means that she (or he) had a pretty bad competition.

I also don't think Musty's and Maroney's situations are comparable.

This is a different topic but I hadn't seen it discussed so I thought I'd bring it up. The rules are going to change in vault finals starting next year. First, the Amanar will be worth 6.3. Then they'll average the 2 vaults D score and substract the deductions from both vaults from a single 10.0 value.
Source here.

[pollyanna]

Have anyone read this yet?

It's seem that Hak Seon come from poor background and with this gold it help his family improve their financial situation. I admire how he has fight to come to this point so much. Truly deserve champion!

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/09/wo...ast/index.html

Talk about an Olympic feel-good story! So happy for him and his family. I hope this means he will stick around for awhile - who knows what great things he will be able to accomplish now.

[gingercrush]

Well cutting the amanar value down to 6.3 is going to do nothing if judging of execution doesn't change. But o.o if the Men can have 0.4D difference between vaults then why can't the ladies. There are just as many problems with the DTY and 1.5TY for me.

[jlai]

Have anyone read this yet?

It's seem that Hak Seon come from poor background and with this gold it help his family improve their financial situation. I admire how he has fight to come to this point so much. Truely deserve champion!

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/09/wo...ast/index.html

500 million - "won" and deserved.