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  1. #1

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    Wild Cards at Worlds / Continental Championships, regardless of country??

    Looking at how strong Japan's men are, and knowing how strong other countries have been in the past in various disciplines, should the ISU allow a wild card (or 2 or 3) in each discipline regardless of where the wild card skater is from? This will result in more than 3 per country in a given discipline at worlds/4ccs/euros.

    I know the argument against allowing more than 3 in the past was that it made it difficult for emerging countries to place higher.

    But seeing as we can hardly get our sport televised, doesn't it make sense to make a small allowance for super successful skaters, so that the championship has the best of the best?

    If this do this, which they won't , but it's fun to speculate, they should really change how spots are awarded. Instead of adding up the placements, they should do something based on being with in a certain percentage of the top 5's average score.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  2. #2

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    I've often longed for this! And there has rarely been a stronger argument than the Japanese men this year!

  3. #3
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    It frustrates me to no end that such world-class competitors must stay at home while others (who I'm sure are super nice people) struggle to acheive some basic elements. Countries/fields where this drives me crazy: Japanese men and ladies, Russia (most disciplines, depending on the year), American men (sometimes ladies). Some years the U.S dance has been pretty strong, Canadian pairs, Chinese pairs, etc. I wonder if the top 24 or top 30 based on the grand prix event standings should be those who go to worlds. I can see people have a problem with six of the 24 pairs teams were Russian, but I say let's give it a try!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    I know the argument against allowing more than 3 in the past was that it made it difficult for emerging countries to place higher.

    But seeing as we can hardly get our sport televised, doesn't it make sense to make a small allowance for super successful skaters, so that the championship has the best of the best?
    Wild card skaters wouldn't crowd out just the emerging countries, they would -- or at least could -- crowd out everyone else.

    This year, Japan has at least five men (Takahashi, Hanya, Kozuka, Machida, and Oda) who, under the present system, might qualify for Worlds and could, at their best, even win a medal. Russia may have a similar situation with its Ladies program soon.

    If you allowed the five Japanese men to compete at Worlds, you could have a Top Fifteen that looked something like this:

    1. CAN
    2. JPN
    3. JPN
    4. JPN
    5. JPN
    6. JPN
    7. ESP
    8. CZE
    9. CZE
    10. FRA
    11. USA
    12. FRA
    13. USA
    14. CAN
    15. KAZ

    (All you Plushenko ubers relax, I'm assuming for the sake of this hypothetical that he voluntarily sits out the competition.)

    Under the current system, the result would be:

    1. CAN
    2. JPN
    3. JPN
    4. JPN
    5. ESP
    6. CZE
    7. CZE
    8. FRA
    9. USA
    10. FRA
    11. USA
    12. CAN
    13. KAZ

    That would give Canada and the Czech Republic (and of course Japan) three entries at the following year's Worlds, and France and the USA two. But if under the alternative hypothetical, Canada and the Czech Republic would end up with just two entries, and Japan might still have five.

    So do would you set up a system that would potentially allow Japan to keep entering five skaters at the expense of two other federations, or would you find some way to let those third Canadian and Czech men in, even if that meant that two other federations wouldn't be able to send any men at all?

    And let's face it. If the ISU in its present mindset were to allow "wild cards," it would be very unlikely to increase the size of the fields to accommodate them.

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    No one wanted to do something like this when the US women were dominating because people would have raised holy hell so why do it now just because the Japanese men are so strong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    No one wanted to do something like this when the US women were dominating because people would have raised holy hell so why do it now just because the Japanese men are so strong?
    Or when Russian pairs and the Russian men?

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    Vagabond, in the last part of my post, I said:

    If this do this ... they should really change how spots are awarded. Instead of adding up the placements, they should do something based on being with in a certain percentage of the top 5's average score.
    I'd also like to add one more thing - they need to build in safeguards against countries manipulating the results of their nationals to beef up the number of entrants they have at worlds. Let's say there's a wild card eligible skater named X. And X's country has someone on their team who wouldn't have a ghost of a chance getting a wild card because they aren't on the season's best list nor do they have a world ranking, then no wild card to X.

    And I totally wanted the US to have 4 ladies spots in 2002.
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    ^ In response to that, they do at least have the minimum TES. It ain't perfect--but I would think it would eliminate the chance of someone having zero world ranking points being eligible to go to worlds?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    No one wanted to do something like this when the US women were dominating because people would have raised holy hell so why do it now just because the Japanese men are so strong?
    This thread is not about the Japanese men. I mentioned in my post other countries and disciplines that this could apply to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    I'd also like to add one more thing - they need to build in safeguards against countries manipulating the results of their nationals to beef up the number of entrants they have at worlds. Let's say there's a wild card eligible skater named X. And X's country has someone on their team who wouldn't have a ghost of a chance getting a wild card because they aren't on the season's best list nor do they have a world ranking, then no wild card to X.
    How does marks at nationals play into how many entries go to Worlds?
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    I'd like to see the medalists at 4CC and Euros be given a free pass to Worlds which would not impact on the number of spots their country would get. So - for ex - if Daiskuke won 4CC, he would get to go to worlds, but Japan would still have 3 spots at Worlds for another 3 skaters [so their total would be 4].

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    I'd like to see the medalists at 4CC and Euros be given a free pass to Worlds which would not impact on the number of spots their country would get. So - for ex - if Daiskuke won 4CC, he would get to go to worlds, but Japan would still have 3 spots at Worlds for another 3 skaters [so their total would be 4].
    But all that would happen then is the "big countries" get to send more people than they qualify. And rig the system. Russia has one spot for Worlds this year in men - under the system you propose, the Russian fed could just pick Plushenko and then send Gachinski on his own to win Euros, thus qualifying two men for Worlds and doubling their likelihood of getting more spots for the next year. And if Japan had four men...well, don't you think that's rather unfair on the poor skater from a minnow country who just got kicked out of Worlds to make room for another skater from a big country? We know the ISU wants to reduce the fields, not increase them.

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    The other issue with the 4CC / European winners being separate from countries' spots is that would only work for places who have other amazing skaters in that discipline. For instance it would make sense to me if a Japanese skater won the men's event at 4CC and Japan still got to send 3 more but not so much if Yuna won the women's or Kostner European's or even if Patrick Chan won the men's event while Japanese skaters came 2nd 3rd and 4th - and Canada got to send another man - but Japan didn't. Or Takahashi and Tran won the Pairs event etc. etc.

  13. #13

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    I am still sad Nakano didn't get to go to the Olympics. Together with Ando, Asada and Suzuki, that was such a strong team.
    “What’s on the revengenda this evening?” – Nolan Ross

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    How does marks at nationals play into how many entries go to Worlds?
    That was very US biased of me I was thinking that in order to maximize # of worlds entries, a country might put "out of nowhere" skaters on their official worlds team, knowing that established skaters with high SB scores or high ranking might get wild cards. To guard against that, ISU would have to look at the skaters a country is sending to see if they + the possible wild card all deserve to be there.

    Although now that there are minimum scores, perhaps this is not such a problem. No one will be showing up at worlds w/o having first been in a senior international, unless they earn the minimum in a junior international event.
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  15. #15
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    For medals, synchronized diving has a rule for championships where more than one team per country is allowed: only one team can medal, and the second team is bumped from the podium, regardless of where they place.

    In any wildcard scheme, the money, placements, and ranking points can be structured in a similar way, where a maximum number from one country can gain any of these.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    For medals, synchronized diving has a rule for championships where more than one team per country is allowed: only one team can medal, and the second team is bumped from the podium, regardless of where they place.

    In any wildcard scheme, the money, placements, and ranking points can be structured in a similar way, where a maximum number from one country can gain any of these.
    This is not true, FINA does not allow multiple entries in a championships , but for Grand Prix and World cup events. These are similar to similar to FS grand prix and tier B events in FSing. In championships and Olympics FINA rules don't allow 2 teams to be entered in the Synchronised diving events.

  17. #17
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    I knew that Olympics were limited to one team, but I thought I was watching WC highlights when there were multiple teams from China at the top. It must have been another event.

    Still, the principle is the same -- there's no reason it couldn't be applied to championships if the ISU wanted to allow wildcards.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    I'd like to see the medalists at 4CC and Euros be given a free pass to Worlds which would not impact on the number of spots their country would get. So - for ex - if Daiskuke won 4CC, he would get to go to worlds, but Japan would still have 3 spots at Worlds for another 3 skaters [so their total would be 4].
    That would mean that Russians would get six pairs spots at worlds, considering that they had the whole podium at the Europeans? Plus 3 medailists from 4CC...

  19. #19
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    Does the Russian team have six pairs with the TES minimums, which set a very high bar? If so, should it be a problem that there are six Russian Pairs at Worlds, especially if there is a limit to the number of medals/money/points they can get?

    On the one hand, the Feds would like extra spots, but on the other hand, the one power that hasn't been eroded is the ability to control and manipulate their national teams. Remember how Sokolova and Sandhu, for example, we're "retired" by their Feds by not being submitted for GPs when they had earned spots at the previous Worlds? If championship medallists were personally guaranteed spots, the tie to the Fed could be as tenuous as a club affiliation, even if they lose the politicking.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  20. #20

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    I am pretty certain they would have six pairs that would meet the TES minimum. I love Russian pairs, so I wouldn't have any problem with there being so many of them. The reason why I mentioned it was that if there is 24 pairs at the worlds and 6 places would be take by medallists from Euros and 4CC without any consideration to which country they come from, that doesn't leave that many spots for the other countries...

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