'Plunging New Depths' - Swimming

[Gazpacho]

Unfortunately, Ye is paying a price for the past behaviour of the Chinese swim program. During the '90s, there was a clear and pervasive pattern of performance and physical changes across practically their whole team of female swimmers and ultimately, at least a couple dozen of their swimmers were found in testing to have used performance-enhancing drugs.

It may well be that she is just a prodigy, but she's associated with a program that has a proven track record, which is why these questions have come up - they are not just random. It's definitely unfortunate for her, though, assuming she is clean.

Chiming in late here. It didn't end in the 1990's, though that was the worst. In June, a 16 year old teammate of Ye Shiwen, Li Zhesi, tested positive for EPO. Li was a member of the 2009 world championship team, and she passed the test then. China's sports training system is centralized, so doping in one athlete raises the chances of doping in other athletes.

If I had to put money on it, I'd say she's on an endurance-enhancing drug. She may not even know it because they take them as vitamins and supplements.

For what it's worth, I'd put my money on there being at least half a dozen other swimmers in these Olympics from other countries, possibly more, that are also doping or have in the past. I can name two off the top of my head--Jessica Hardy and Cesar Cielo. Again, they may not even be aware of it, as those substances are sometimes concealed in supplements.

[os168]

Well frankly, I find the whole situation most ridiculous, unfortunate and completely hypocritical so no wonder the Chinese are feeling victimized among all this.

Yes doping is completely wrong, and should be severely punished, but the tests are there to protect the clean athletes too, even from previous guilty nations like China and uh... the US. I do wonder if this is not really about Ye but more to do with

1) The US can't accept they can be beaten by the Chinese. It goes beyond sport. Certain factions of the western media felt the same.
2) They don't believe in IOC rigorous drug program and prefer science fiction. Genetics improvements really? Actually why not just say Chinese are an alien race with 'unbelievable' superpowers taking over the planet (which they are.. at scary pace).
3) With great power, they believe they can bully their rivals to advance their race outside the pool. Yes mental game matters too, as explained by Ian Thorpe in the BBC Studio.

In all the years in history i have been watching the Olympics I have never seen or experienced anything like this. It has always been where records are broken, the world celebrated regardless of the athlete's or the nation's history. None have ever gone up and accuse and insinuate anything else literally within seconds when the performance ended. Assuming guilty before any evidence AND in spite of proven evidence to continue this sour grape festival.

As I remembered, the Chinese cheered and clapped along with everyone for the 'unbelievable' performances ef Michale Phelps at Beijing '08 bagging 8 golds on all around events. Imagine if anyone raised this issue back then, how would it tarnish the Olympics experience for all sports fan around the world, and would it be fair to Michael or the US?

The United states has the greatest history of doping in all aspects of their sporting culture, 119 cases recorded on Wiki (itself is probably a little outdated since it didn't have Li Zhesi among the 9 cases of doping recorded for China)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cases_in_sport

Just how many times have you ever heard any accusation lobbied against a US athlete the day before their big race or immediately within seconds of their record breaking performance? What a shame the Olympics has come to this low. Other nations have had far more doping problems than China, certainly have never experienced the humiliation experienced by Ye - a 16 years old from a prominent rival official to the global press.

There're clearly double standards played here. I guess in the future no one should clap for anyone as long as they don't agree with the result? The whole thing is frankly unfortunate, as it mirrors the distrust and resentment many felt from the east towards western press (and vice versa I suppose). Even S.Korea who had the weirdest Olympic so far with weird decisions over turning their wins into a loss; but typically like them, the worse they felt, they turn it into a strength to motivated them. They are currently ranked no. 3 on the BBC medal league table, which is just insane. I hope the rest of the games goes without a hitch because I want the London games to be the best ever for all athletes!

[Gazpacho]

In all the years in history i have been watching the Olympics I have never seen or experienced anything like this. It has always been where records are broken, the world celebrated regardless of the athlete's or the nation's history. None have ever gone up and accuse and insinuate anything else literally within seconds when the performance ended. Assuming guilty before any evidence AND in spite of proven evidence to continue this sour grape festival.

Um, have you heard of the older East German swimmers, Michelle Smith, Inge de Bruin, Alain Bernard, and others? All the talk after their victories was about doping. And some of the suspicion has been proven true.

You're right that her being Chinese has something to do with it. It's because the Chinese have a history of widespread doping, and the fact that their training is centralized makes it more likely that if one athlete gets illegal substances, so do the other athletes.

[os168]

The thing about this doping reputation of the Chinese has been vastly blown hugely out of proportion relative to everyone else. If you compare to actual stats of US and other countries to do with doping including UK, you'd wonder if Chinese are the only guilty ones. It is typical that anything faulty with the Chinese tend to get sensationalized by the western media, where the individual human story get lost to and became part of a sweeping generalization against a nation. =

Even US's Jessica Hardy who took part this year for the 4 x 100 had problem with doping and had been kicked out of her team for Beijing Olympics, but it was not mentioned anywhere. The nature of singling out one individual by an rival official (yes she was singled out) and call her final lap as 'unbelievable' full of innuendos and accusation when real sport experience and trend would indicate it is VERY possible indicate it is a smear campaign more than anything else.

I found this article,

http://www.swimnews.com/news/view/8835

Rebecca Adlington's final lap for 800m last year was 28.91, faster than BOTH Lochte 29.10 and Ye 28.93 for their 400m final lap here. She was 22 last year, not a teenager who has higher chance of improving their performance. So it is not like it is 'impossible' or 'unbelievable' and can't be done if you really train hard for it and strategize your race accordingly. Swimmer's tactic varies, and Ye's freestyle happen to be her strength which was why it was her best time.

[AYS]

Rebecca Adlington's final lap for 800m last year was 28.91, faster than BOTH Lochte 29.10 and Ye 28.93 for their 400m final lap here. She was 22 last year, not a teenager who has higher chance of improving their performance. So it is not like it is 'impossible' or 'unbelievable' and can't be done if you really train hard for it and strategize your race accordingly. Swimmer's tactic varies, and Ye's freestyle happen to be her strength which was why it was her best time.

Just as an aside here, since people are citing these kind of stats, it's not appropriate to compare the final 50free split of a 400IM to an 800free - two totally different races. My daughter is a 400IMer and distance freestyler at the colleagiate level and her final 50 of the 800 is approx 1-2 sec faster than in her IM, and I think that's pretty typical. They're not kidding when they say the 400IM is grueling .

[Michalle]

Perhaps this is super cynical, but I assume that every athlete from every country who participates in cycling, swimming, baseball, or track and field is possibly (or really, likely) doping. I mean all of them. Some have been caught, some haven't. But in sports were it seems so endemic, it just seems like you would have to do it as well even to compete.

[UMBS Go Blue]

Nathan Adrian. MINE!!!

And, ladies, take note:

Ryan Lochte only has time for "one-night stands," says his mom

[liv]

Sometimes I think everyone should just accept the doping and athletes should make a list of what they're taking. They can then be put in categories depending on what/how much they're taking.

I know this goes back a way, but we all know now that the 3 medallists in the mens 100m final in 1988 Seoul were on drugs, not just Ben, so I still often think he was the best there.

And yeah, love to have a mom like Lochte's. I cannot believe his mom would say that. What a parent.

[Dragonlady]

The thing about this doping reputation of the Chinese has been vastly blown hugely out of proportion relative to everyone else. If you compare to actual stats of US and other countries to do with doping including UK, you'd wonder if Chinese are the only guilty ones. It is typical that anything faulty with the Chinese tend to get sensationalized by the western media, where the individual human story get lost to and became part of a sweeping generalization against a nation.

Marion Jones was the most tested athlete of all time and adamantly denied she was doping, until she was caught and admitted that she had, in fact, been doping throughout her career. Those in the business of cheating, know how to avoid testing positive.

And those who protest the most, tend to be the biggest cheaters. Remember how East Germans, Ben Johnson and Marion Jones denied, denied, denied until they were caught? The East Germans were told by their federation that they were getting vitamin shots.

[liv]

I remember back when the Eastern bloc was still around, a coach from East Germany said about hiding drugs/doping: East Germany is good, Russia is better, but the US is the best.

[oleada]

Nathan Adrian. MINE!!!

And, ladies, take note:

Ryan Lochte only has time for "one-night stands," says his mom

*researching London flights*

[os168]

Nathan Adrian. MINE!!!

And, ladies, take note:

Ryan Lochte only has time for "one-night stands," says his mom

LOL... nice advertisement for STDs. Thanks Mum!

[Alixana]

Nathan Adrian. MINE!!!

And, ladies, take note:

Ryan Lochte only has time for "one-night stands," says his mom

Think Lochte has just forbidden his mom to do any more interviews!

[Skittl1321]

The East Germans were told by their federation that they were getting vitamin shots.

This makes me feel so badly for them. When someone like Jessica Hardy gets her ban reduced for unknowingly taking tainted supplements on the approved list (which I think was a good decision- she still missed the Olympics, it was definitely the worst moment of her athletic career) I wonder how it is any different than those women having no idea their coaches were drugging them. I really do believe they were too young/naive to be complacent in pretending they didn't know what was going on.

And those who protest the most, tend to be the biggest cheaters. Remember how East Germans, Ben Johnson and Marion Jones denied, denied, denied until they were caught?

Except it is such a "when did you stop beating your wife" question. If you aren't doping you'll deny allegations, likely repeatedly. How do you not protest that? If you are doping, you'll deny allegations. Do you expect non-dopers to just ignore the repeated questions, usually asked directly to them?

[Erin]

Nathan Adrian. MINE!!!

And, ladies, take note:

Ryan Lochte only has time for "one-night stands," says his mom

*researching London flights*

Hmm...Adrian and Lochte are nice, but I want the #2 and #3 guys from the 4 by 200 free relay (Dwyer and Berens...not that their names matter). Or James Magnussen. I was feeling kind of bad for Brent Hayden standing on the podium with Magnussen and Adrian, the comparison was not flattering. (That said, I'm sure Hayden was happy enough with his medal that he wouldn't really care about that!)

[Prancer]

The United states has the greatest history of doping in all aspects of their sporting culture, 119 cases recorded on Wiki (itself is probably a little outdated since it didn't have Li Zhesi among the 9 cases of doping recorded for China)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cases_in_sport

You're not arguing that US athletes have a reputation for doping, are you?

Even US's Jessica Hardy who took part this year for the 4 x 100 had problem with doping and had been kicked out of her team for Beijing Olympics, but it was not mentioned anywhere.

It was covered in a piece on NBC last night.

Just how many times have you ever heard any accusation lobbied against a US athlete the day before their big race or immediately within seconds of their record breaking performance?

I'm guessing you wouldn't count, say, Lance Armstrong? How about track and field? Jackie Joyner-Kersee and Flo Jo come to mind. I still remember all the brouhaha stemming from the interview with Joaquim Cruz: "Florence, in 1984, you could see an extremely feminine person, but today she looks more like a man than a woman. And Joyner herself, she looks like a gorilla, so these people, they must be doing something that isn't normal to gain all these muscles."

It was all over the news and covered extensively during Olympic coverage. I remember endless side-by-side photos of Flo Jo before and after. I also remember one particularly nasty slo-mo of Jackie Joyner-Kersee in which she really did look like a gorilla that was shown over and over.

Perhaps the Brazilian men's distance running team was just jealous of the US women's track and field team and couldn't believe those women could beat them. Or maybe it was a North vs. South America thing. Cruz says he knew the women were doping because he could see it in their eyes and claimed that the athletes usually know who is cheating and who isn't, but that was probably just sour grapes. After all, Flo Jo never had a positive test.

I don't remember ever seeing any equivalent coverage during any other Olympic Games. But it seems to me--maybe I'm crazy--that there are always accusations about track and field athletes doping at every Games since then. And yes, it happens before and after events. Is it fair that all of them are under suspicion because some of them dope? No. But it isn't as if track and field athletes as a whole haven't earned that reputation.

Like Natalie Coughlin said months ago, “With things like Twitter and Facebook and blogging, there are just so many cynical people out there throwing out their opinion, and sometimes it is accurate. I mean, unfortunately, people do try to sometimes cheat. The people who have cheated have ruined it for everybody. That is just the way it is.”

I have no idea if Ye is a cheater; I think she should be be given at least the benefit of the doubt until a positive test proves otherwise. But the idea that she is being unfairly singled out for accusations of cheating? She's in a pretty big club there.

[wickedwitch]

Marion Jones was the most tested athlete of all time and adamantly denied she was doping, until she was caught and admitted that she had, in fact, been doping throughout her career. Those in the business of cheating, know how to avoid testing positive.

And those who protest the most, tend to be the biggest cheaters. Remember how East Germans, Ben Johnson and Marion Jones denied, denied, denied until they were caught? The East Germans were told by their federation that they were getting vitamin shots.

Of course it's still possible that she's doping, but I give her and anyone else the benefit of the doubt.

[london_calling]

Rebecca Soni

[DaveRocks]

Let's go Lochte!!!

[Lorac]

Wow - Clary beat Lochte - who only managed a bronze - wow That was unbelievable - the BBC commentators had given that to Ryan before the race even started!!