Rank the Jumping Technique of These Senior Ladies

[smarts1]

So we got some really interesting responses on the skating skills of the senior ladies, so I'm wondering where you guys would place the same group of skaters (with a few others) in terms of jumping technique. So here's the list and rank away!

1. Miki Ando
2. Mao Asada
3. Yuna Kim
4. Kimmie Meissner
5. Yukari Nakano
6. Carolina Kostner
7. Sarah Meier
8. Emily Hughes
9. Joannie Rochette
10. Ashley Wagner
11. Alissa Czisny
12. Mirai Nagasu
13. Akiko Suzuki
14. Kiira Korpi
15. Michelle Kwan
16. Irina Slutskaya

[Triple Butz]

So we got some really interesting responses on the skating skills of the senior ladies, so I'm wondering where you guys would place the same group of skaters (with a few others) in terms of jumping technique. So here's the list and rank away!

1. Miki Ando
2. Mao Asada
3. Yuna Kim
4. Kimmie Meissner
5. Yukari Nakano
6. Carolina Kostner
7. Sarah Meier
8. Emily Hughes
9. Joannie Rochette
10. Ashley Wagner
11. Alissa Czisny
12. Mirai Nagasu
13. Akiko Suzuki
14. Kiira Korpi
15. Michelle Kwan
16. Irina Slutskaya

If we're talking pure technique, not consistency:
Excellent
1)Kostner (when she had the lutz, anyway...)
2)Rochette
3)Kim
4)Ando
5)Slutskaya
Good
6)Kwan (iffy lutz)
7)Suzuki (iffy lutz)
8)Asada (flutz, weak salchow)
9)Nagasu (iffy lutz, salchow MIA)
10)Wagner (flutz, sometimes toe-axels)
11)Meier (lip, no loop)
Could be better
12)Meissner (lip, toe-axel)
13)Hughes (Loop went MIA, heavy landings)
Sketchy
14)Nakano (iffy flip AND lutz, wrap, loop went MIA)
15)Korpi (her jump arch is very odd the toe and loop are her only jumps that don't look strange to me)
16)Czisny (no explanation necessary)

I feel good about my top five in that order, but within the other sub groups it's actually pretty interchangeable for me based on what aspects you prioritize.

[museksk8r]

1. Irina Slutskaya
2. Joannie Rochette
3. Michelle Kwan
4. Yuna Kim
5. Carolina Kostner
6. Miki Ando
7. Yukari Nakano
8. Ashley Wagner
9. Akiko Suzuki
10. Mao Asada
11. Mirai Nagasu
12. Kimmie Meissner
13. Sarah Meier
14. Alissa Czisny
15. Kiira Korpi
16. Emily Hughes

[barbk]

I'm not sure how to approach it with skaters like Kwan or Slutskaya who had tremendously long careers during which their jumping skills varied a lot. Even aside from that, some of the skaters were fabulous at everything but, say, one jump. Rochette had a lot of years where she was quite frankly not good, though she certainly went out on a high note.

I guess I'd start by throwing out the ladies who simply have no measurable success at one of the jumps.

Denise Beilmann isn't on the list -- shouldn't she be?

[icellist]

I'm only going to do top 10 or 11

Top 5 (in alphabetical order) is no doubt
Miki Ando, Yuna Kim, Carolina Kostner, Joannie Rochette and Irina Slutskaya

Miki, Joannie, and Irina have all of the triples sans 3A. Lots of power and good technique in the jump. While Yuna and Carolina are missing the loop and lutz respectively, the quality of their other jumps make up for that missing jump type. Most of their jumps you can use as textbook examples. Height, speed, distance, takeoff, landing...

Almost at the top
Michelle Kwan, Mirai Nagasu, Akiko Suzuki

They mostly have the same technique on the lutz. They get a slight reputation for flutzing: when they don't flutz, the tech panel still calls it. All other jumps are there though. [Re Mirai's Salchow: it was a beauty in juniors, but Carroll left it out of her programs]. Mirai has the superior loop. Suzuki has that killer 2A-3T. Michelle has the consistency. They all have lovely edges and positions on their landings.

End of top 10
Yukari Nakano, Ashley Wagner

Yukari's wrap didn't bother me. I am still amazed at how she gets the rotation in her jumps considering the angular momentum and radial separation her leg gets. I can see why people think her flip/lutz takeoffs are iffy if you're distracted by the leg though. Can't forget 3A! Ashley has a lot of power in her full arsenal of jumps. The flutz is pretty obvious though. She fixed her toe axel though.

11. Mao Asada
She has the axel, flip and loop. She had a few good 3A. She flutzes. Loops are pretty nice. Pops her salchow. Her toe is okay. But she has nice light landings. Her jumps are more impressive than no-kneebend-Meier, thud-landing-Hughes, pre-rotated-salchow&toe=axel-Meissner, effortless-fall-Czisny and toe-loop-only-Korpii.

I actually feel pretty mean typing this because I can't jump but it is my opinion. Maybe I was too critical :/

[sk8ingcoach]

1: Carolina Kostner (except lutz, but her other jumps are textbook)
2: Joannie Rochette
3: Yuna Kim (exception of loop and salchow)
4: Irina Slutskaya
5: Miki Ando
6: Michelle Kwan
7: Suzuki
8: Wagner (flutz)
9: Meier
10: Asada (good technique on axel, but nothing else)
11: Nagasu
12: Hughes (odd technique but managed to pull of some good jumps sometimes)
13: Meissner (toe-axel, DOWNGRADES !!!!!!! )
14: Nakano (huge wrap)
15: Korpi (hunch-back)
16: Czisny (TERRIBLE)

[t.mann]

at overrating Rochette's jumps.
I don't see anything special from her jumps(including 2A) except 3S&3Lo.
Even her 3S&3Lo are not that excellent.
Rochette's all jumps except 3Lz are only sound.

[Amy03]

Mao Asada ( tight air positioning, fast rotation, good flow, great height, smooth and steady landing, having showcased all the jumps including the 3A and several 3-3, the only thing left to say is a natural talented jumper)

Miki Ando ( fast rotation, tight air positioning, good height and the jump display she has showed also indicates what a natural talented jumper she is)

Yuna kim ( great jumps in terms of air positioning, height, flow but lack of loop, and inconsistent salcow)

Suzuki Akiko (tight air positioning, great flow, good height...)

Yukari Nakano ( wrap leg)

Carolina Kostner ( just a few years ago i really hated her jumps and had to cringe EVERYTIME she had to jump, but this past season she greatly improved but I am not fan of watered down jump content)

[jatale]

To me, nobody really equals Yuna in the speed and height of her jumps. Both Michelle and Dick Button seemed to agree with that assessment in their remarks at the 2009 Worlds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccVEn8Jb_18

[antmanb]

If we're talking pure technique, not consistency:
Excellent
1)Kostner (when she had the lutz, anyway...)
2)Rochette
3)Kim
4)Ando
5)Slutskaya

Trouble with putting Ando in this list is that she had a lip and then took it out completely so I think she belongs in teh group of "Good" with other skaters that have questionable edges.

And dare I say that Kim with no 3 Loop also needs to be in the good rather than excellent list.

[fsfan22]

Trouble with putting Ando in this list is that she had a lip and then took it out completely so I think she belongs in teh group of "Good" with other skaters that have questionable edges.

And dare I say that Kim with no 3 Loop also needs to be in the good rather than excellent list.

I agree with all of this, especially w/ Miki. Her jumps are good in the air, but a lot of her landings are questionable. Her loop entry has always been ... different?

[gkelly]

I guess I'd start by throwing out the ladies who simply have no measurable success at one of the jumps.

Denise Beilmann isn't on the list -- shouldn't she be?

Would you make different "throw them out" criteria for different eras?

Biellmann didn't do all the triple jumps that we've expected since the 1990s, but she did more than those she was competing against. Well, she did one harder one than anyone else was doing at the time, and I believe if

If you're going to include Biellmann, I think you need to include Zayak . . . and then Ito . . . as well. And other jumping trendsetters from other points in women's skating history. But that opens up whole other sets of questions that I don't think the poster of this thread was interested in.

I didn't love Biellmann's technique. She had a very weird arm position in the air.

[Kasey]

Don't know how anyone can be ranked at or near the top when they don't have all 5 triple jumps a female elite skater is supposed to have. Doesn't matter if their jumping technique on 3 or 4 of the triples is "textbook"; to me, if they can't do them all properly, it's not sound technique.

[JanetB]

Don't know how anyone can be ranked at or near the top when they don't have all 5 triple jumps a female elite skater is supposed to have. Doesn't matter if their jumping technique on 3 or 4 of the triples is "textbook"; to me, if they can't do them all properly, it's not sound technique.

However if you restrict the discussion to on those on the list who have all the jumps with correct technique, then you end up with Joannie Rochette.

[Triple Butz]

Trouble with putting Ando in this list is that she had a lip and then took it out completely so I think she belongs in teh group of "Good" with other skaters that have questionable edges.

And dare I say that Kim with no 3 Loop also needs to be in the good rather than excellent list.

All I can say for my own list is that I didn't base it on consistency so much as how the jumps looked when they did them. Miki did do a real 3f for at least two seasons and many of them had excellent height. Yuna did do several beautiful triple loop jumps here and there. I saw her practicing them at Worlds in 09, and though she didn't do it in her program, I saw her land FIVE gorgeous ones in a row like they were nothing.

[leafygreens]

I would like an explanation as to what's wrong with Czisny's technique. Besides the fact that she falls all the time. When she does jumps cleanly, they look nice.

[arakwafan2006]

I would like an explanation as to what's wrong with Czisny's technique. Besides the fact that she falls all the time. When she does jumps cleanly, they look nice.

ITA. I do think that she tends to under rotate at times but when they are landed, I think her jumps are actually very pretty. I am a Mao Fan but Yu Na's jumps are amazing. The toe jumps have perfect arch, speed and power to them. To me her jumps almost dont suite her feminine demeanor they are so strong.

Mao these days has beautiful jumps. Sato has done a great job at getting her to blend her technique into the rest of her skating. I dont think that her lutz will get fixed though especially since the axel is still her focus. She was quite the jumper before doing it right became so dang important LOL.

Kostner... i gotta give it to her. Her jumps are just beautiful. She's harnessed her talent and really jumps well.

Ando to me Is a natural jumper like Slutskaya. I could watch her jump all day

[FunnyBut]

However if you restrict the discussion to on those on the list who have all the jumps with correct technique, then you end up with Joannie Rochette.

...and if you added a sixth triple, you'd end up with Tonya Harding and Midori Ito. Still the best jumpers ever, it's amazing what they accomplished so long ago.

[Triple Butz]

I would like an explanation as to what's wrong with Czisny's technique. Besides the fact that she falls all the time. When she does jumps cleanly, they look nice.

Well, she lips and even when she was doing the sal many years ago it was cheated and awkward. Aside from that, her rotation is somewhat slow, she has low height, and enters her jumps without much speed. Her air position is usually a bit tilted causing her to land a little forward and usually has difficulty completing the rotation.

[gkelly]

Some skaters can naturally jump very high because of their body type and can also rotate quickly. So they are able to complete harder jumps more easily, at least some of the time. (They may be inconsistent at these jumps if they're relying on physical gifts and skimping on technique.)

Both those skills can be learned and improved, but ultimately the skater's physical makeup is going to limit the maximum height or rotational speed she can achieve.

Other skaters do not have the fast-twitch muscles or body proportions necessary to jump as high or rotate as quickly. They have less room for error. In order to do triple jumps at all, they need to have better technique than the skaters who are more athletically gifted in the relevant areas.

So are we asking who had the biggest, most impressive jumps, or who had the best technique?