The most "unbeloved" Olympic Champion(s) - what do you think?

[berthesghost]

So no one was trying to make sure she won.

judge #9 is the us judge who iirc went on record saying he put Kwan in 3rd to make sure Hughes won.

Sure, the Russian, Belarus and Slovakian judges who voted irina in 1st weren't trying to make sure sarah won, they were propping up irina.

[UGG]

judge #9 is the us judge who iirc went on record saying he put Kwan in 3rd to make sure Hughes won.

Sure, the Russian, Belarus and Slovakian judges who voted irina in 1st weren't trying to make sure sarah won, they were propping up irina.

Well, I guess what i am saying is that Sarah's win was not influenced by the pairs event. I remember reading all that "the judges got it right" blah blah blah but if you look at the ordinals out of the top three, she had the least amount of judges ranking her first overall.

[Marco]

Sarah should have had all 1st place ordinals for the long program and Michelle and Irina should have had 2nds and 3rds-I don't see how that can be argued at all.

This may sound crazy but I think my scores would look like this, if skate order is not to be taken into account:

Kwan 5.6/5.8
Hughes 5.5/5.8
Slutskaya 5.7/5.6
Suguri 5.6/5.6

The 5.5 for Hughes is really for the bad technique on the jumps and the flying spin, and of course the UR on the jumps. Everything else I actually much prefer her to Slutskaya.

[leafygreens]

Regarding the comments that "Sarah shouldn't have won because one score was 10th in the SP", it actually looks like it was the judge who was more out of line with their scoring: 6 10 4 5 5 5 5 4 4

[berthesghost]

Regarding the comments that "Sarah shouldn't have won because one score was 10th in the SP", it actually looks like it was the judge who was more out of line with their scoring: 6 10 4 5 5 5 5 4 4

5th wouldn't have been good enough to win overall, so

[UGG]

Regarding the comments that "Sarah shouldn't have won because one score was 10th in the SP", it actually looks like it was the judge who was more out of line with their scoring: 6 10 4 5 5 5 5 4 4

Actually, that is not what I said. I said Olympic Champions should not be getting 10th place ordinals. It is just kind of crazy to me that the winner of the competition had a 10th place ordinal.

[aftershocks]

Yeah, the numbers (scores/ ordinals under 6.0) are always interesting. And of course we can't actually know what was in each judges' mind, but without a doubt what happened in pairs really did haunt the rest of the event. You can be sure the ISU had something to say to all the judges in all the remaining fs events after the pairs scandal hit. Probably it went something to the effect: "All fixes are off!" IMO, Anissina/ Peizerat shouldn't have needed anybody to fix anything -- they were too amazing, but we all know there was something going on re Quid Pro Quo scoring (as there often has been in fs historically). Of course what the skaters do on the ice always had to be factored in too. Under IJS/CoP what the skaters do on the ice really seems to matter much less (in some events) especially since the judges are now anonymous.

Yep, I think there was a bloc definitely going to hold up Irina no matter what. So, in the judges' minds (tho' of course I can't read 'em ) IMO all things being equal (IOW, Irina and Kwanita skating up to their ability), the judges likely felt it would come down between the Kween and apple-cheeked Irina who was favored in the lead-up to '02 Olympics for her power skating and comeback from illness. Sasha was in the mix, but she hadn't ever shown any signs she was ever going to land all her jumps under pressure. Obviously, from sp results, Sarah was not a gold medal winner (or even a medal winner) in the majority of judges' eyes -- apparent from her sp marks.

IMO, it was always going to come down between Kween and Slute for gold, but then sassy Sarah went for broke having nothing to lose, and it kinda sent shockwaves through the remaining top competitors (and through judges as well, since they now weren't too sure what to do, except to give at least the appearance of fairness). The top 3 ladies did seem as if they were in some kind of shock after Sarah skated, since none of them looked like they had their legs underneath them in their free programs. Judges were probably a bit nonplussed re scoring*, as Sarah's skate plus specter of the pairs scandal kinda threw a wrench into the proceedings. Judges would have loved to give it to Irina after Kween's tense stumble with hands down and feet sliding out from under her, but Irina skated mostly like a figment of her real self. Kwan's stumble knocked the edge off her nerves, and she skated very well thereafter, but it was too late. If it had just been a minor step-out on a jump landing (a la Anton S), there may have been a slight chance for the crazy fluctuation in marks for all the top skaters to have moved farther in Kwan's direction -- surely an outright fall by Irina instead of just sloppy skating might have made somewhat of a difference in Kween's favor because altho' Sarah skated lights out in the fp, she was not a judges' favorite and had come in 4th in sp. So, there would have been less chance for questioning Sarah not winning gold for a perfect free skate if Slute had fallen, and Kwan had stumbled/fell more like Yama did in '92 .

FS -- endlessly fascinating -- so many hilarious, logic-defying scenarios.

* if only they had realized it was possible to take something off for Sarah's underrotations!

[demetriosj]

Boring is an understatement. It also didn't help that Totmianina always seemed like a sour puss and Marinin was completely stoic and emotionless.

Yah, would it have killed them to crack a smile? Maybe it was from working with Vasiliev, yawn..

[aftershocks]

^^ Yeah sure, tho' T/M do seem to have a fan following, and in interviews a little small bit of their sweet personalities show but always held in check on the ice (maybe due to the both of them being essentially shy?).

Ya prob'ly got it right tho' re having to work with Vasiliev. I did kinda wonder why V/V didn't make this poll too.

[Triple Butz]

IMO, it was always going to come down between Kween and Slute for gold, but then sassy Sarah went for broke having nothing to lose, and it kinda sent shockwaves through the remaining top competitors (and through judges as well, since they now weren't too sure what to do, except to give at least the appearance of fairness). The top 3 ladies did seem as if they were in some kind of shock after Sarah skated, since none of them looked like they had their legs underneath them in their free programs. etc....

I don't think Sarah skating well was a surprise at ALL. Sarah had landed 6-7 triples (well, "triples") in pretty much every freeskate going on two years at that point. Of course, the second 3/3 was an added bonus, but Kwan and Slute (and the judges) were used to Hughes delivering. I'm sure the judges still expected one or both of Kwan/Slute to step up and skate a great long. It's only speculation of course, but in my mind it was the weight of the Olympic rings and the pressure of the OGM that weighed down on the two of them and it probably had very little to do with Sarah's skate.

[kwanette]

Yeah, the numbers (scores/ ordinals under 6.0) are always interesting. And of course we can't actually know what was in each judges' mind, but without a doubt what happened in pairs really did haunt the rest of the event. You can be sure the ISU had something to say to all the judges in all the remaining fs events after the pairs scandal hit. Probably it went something to the effect: "All fixes are off!" IMO, Anissina/ Peizerat shouldn't have needed anybody to fix anything -- they were too amazing, but we all know there was something going on re Quid Pro Quo scoring (as there often has been in fs historically). Of course what the skaters do on the ice always had to be factored in too. Under IJS/CoP what the skaters do on the ice really seems to matter much less (in some events) especially since the judges are now anonymous.

Yep, I think there was a bloc definitely going to hold up Irina no matter what. So, in the judges' minds (tho' of course I can't read 'em ) IMO all things being equal (IOW, Irina and Kwanita skating up to their ability), the judges likely felt it would come down between the Kween and apple-cheeked Irina who was favored in the lead-up to '02 Olympics for her power skating and comeback from illness. Sasha was in the mix, but she hadn't ever shown any signs she was ever going to land all her jumps under pressure. Obviously, from sp results, Sarah was not a gold medal winner (or even a medal winner) in the majority of judges' eyes -- apparent from her sp marks.

IMO, it was always going to come down between Kween and Slute for gold, but then sassy Sarah went for broke having nothing to lose, and it kinda sent shockwaves through the remaining top competitors (and through judges as well, since they now weren't too sure what to do, except to give at least the appearance of fairness). The top 3 ladies did seem as if they were in some kind of shock after Sarah skated, since none of them looked like they had their legs underneath them in their free programs. Judges were probably a bit nonplussed re scoring*, as Sarah's skate plus specter of the pairs scandal kinda threw a wrench into the proceedings. Judges would have loved to give it to Irina after Kween's tense stumble with hands down and feet sliding out from under her, but Irina skated mostly like a figment of her real self. Kwan's stumble knocked the edge off her nerves, and she skated very well thereafter, but it was too late. If it had just been a minor step-out on a jump landing (a la Anton S), there may have been a slight chance for the crazy fluctuation in marks for all the top skaters to have moved farther in Kwan's direction -- surely an outright fall by Irina instead of just sloppy skating might have made somewhat of a difference in Kween's favor because altho' Sarah skated lights out in the fp, she was not a judges' favorite and had come in 4th in sp. So, there would have been less chance for questioning Sarah not winning gold for a perfect free skate if Slute had fallen, and Kwan had stumbled/fell more like Yama did in '92 .

FS -- endlessly fascinating -- so many hilarious, logic-defying scenarios.

* if only they had realized it was possible to take something off for Sarah's underrotations!

Irina's comeback from illness was heading into 06, not 02.

[Susan M]

The 5.5 for Hughes is really for the bad technique on the jumps and the flying spin, and of course the UR on the jumps.

This just shows why they don't let folks judge from home.

Have you watched the video of Hughes FS lately? While she was a notorious under-rotater, in that particular skate all her jumps (except possibly the 3Loop on the end of the 3S combo) were fully enough rotated. Yes, the Lutz technique deserves a ding, but under the rules of the day (and even of today) the skater gets credit for the lutz even with the incorrect edge. There is no way anyone could justify a 5.5 technical mark for a ladies skate with 7 (or even 6) successfully landed triples, including two 3-3 combinations, good speed and attack, nice spirals, and a beautiful layback spin. There were really very few places anyone could take off on her technical mark in that particular skate.

IMO the worst ordinal of this event was Slutskaya not getting 1st in the SP.

[berthesghost]

^^ Yeah sure, tho' T/M do seem to have a fan following, and in interviews a little small bit of their sweet personalities show but always held in check on the ice (maybe due to the both of them being essentially shy?).

Ya prob'ly got it right tho' re having to work with Vasiliev. I did kinda wonder why V/V didn't make this poll too.

still trying to get my head around TT and "sweet personality" used in the same sentence without the benefit of other words like "complete lack of" etc...

and by "work with" you mean "getting @#$%ed by" right

[kwanette]

[QUOTE=Triple Butz;3631770]I don't think Sarah skating well was a surprise at ALL. Sarah had landed 6-7 triples (well, "triples") in pretty much every freeskate going on two years at that point. Of course, the second 3/3 was an added bonus, but Kwan and Slute (and the judges) were used to Hughes delivering. I'm sure the judges still expected one or both of Kwan/Slute to step up and skate a great long. It's only speculation of course, but in my mind it was the weight of the Olympic rings and the pressure of the OGM that weighed down on the two of them and it probably had very little to do with Sarah's skate.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree with this. Sarah's FS would have been a foot note if either Irina or MK (or maybe Sasha) had had a clean skate.

[aftershocks]

Thanks kwanette, for the correction re Irina's illness having occurred after 2002. My bad in not checking the date for accuracy.

Right you may be berthesghost re TatTot. I never met her in person, but she did seem to come off as shy (not necessarily equivalent to "sweet") in interviews, altho' that could have been because she didn't speak English well and/or was uncomfortable in interviews. I think I'll "fold 'em" re Vasiliev and TatTot's "working" or otherwise relationship.

Yes, I agree that Michelle and Irina were unable to overcome the pressure of their Olympic moments (weight of those rings, as some of you say likely being the major factor). Still, the arena was going wild for Sarah after she skated, so you add 4th place skater skating lights out in the fp, along with the "weight of those rings" ...

Re Slute not getting 1st place ordinals in sp, didn't she get some 1st place ordinals? She was just not first overall. If you like Slute best, I guess it's "worst" she wasn't 1st in sp and 1st in fp too. I don't see how Kwan being 1st overall in the sp is that debatable. But yeah, how could I forget, everything's debatable when it comes to fs.

[michiruwater]

Schwarz.

Why he isn't on the Poll, I have no idea.

1. His medal was very controversial
2. He is a total criminal scumbag

How is anyone even close?

Because most of us have no idea who the hell he is?

I mean, I sure didn't. He competed 21 years before I was born and I've never heard him mentioned before. Naturally, I know about Dick and Peggy and Katarina and all the other big stars who made a difference and are iconic in the sport, as well as skaters who maybe didn't medal as highly but were also very beloved and are talked about, but when a skater is never mentioned, even an Olympic Gold Medalist, why would anyone my age (or even many years older than me, as people who are currently 44 were born the year he won) know about them?

[berthesghost]

Because most of us have no idea who the hell he is?

I mean, I sure didn't. He competed 21 years before I was born and I've never heard him mentioned before. Naturally, I know about Dick and Peggy and Katarina and all the other big stars who made a difference and are iconic in the sport, as well as skaters who maybe didn't medal as highly but were also very beloved and are talked about, but when a skater is never mentioned, even an Olympic Gold Medalist, why would anyone my age (or even many years older than me, as people who are currently 44 were born the year he won) know about them?

Um... so the fact that he was an OGM and won absolutely nothing else and absolutely no ever talks about him ever didn't make you at least suspect he might be "the most unbeloved" vs some of the recent skaters who while hated by some are loved by others and the debate rages on and on and on,.... ?

Plus all of the news about him being arrested for human slave trafficing was just a few years ago, and the "Tim Wood wuz robbed" story comes up every few years, so..

[leafygreens]

apple-cheeked Irina

I think the standings in FS should have been: 1st - Hughes, 2nd - Kwan, 3rd - Cohen!

[aftershocks]

^^ In that scenario, wouldn't Kwan have won gold overall, and Hughes silver?

[berthesghost]

^^ In that scenario, wouldn't Kwan have won gold overall, and Hughes silver?

And Cohen bronze. I can't imagine a us sweep in slc would have gone down too well.